Of course you can mitigate the effects of SES especially for math. It is not a stereotype to say Asian nations achieve better in math despite the class structure. They are not the only countries that achieve well in math. There is first of all a “time on task” argument that can help by assigning math specialists down to grade 2 or so so that math is not too integrated into other subjects that it gets forgotten. You could use Jump Math but few do. Yes I support it. You can simply instill in kids the idea that this is “really important.” You can also go deeper rather than wider with topic ie teach “fractions” in grade 3 or 4 for 3/4 of the year, get it right and move on.

Doug, thanks for bringing up the “Asian nations” angle.

Let’s not forget that at least some of those Asian nations use a different math curriculum than we do.  When we home schooled, we used Singapore Math which, I think, was based on the math curriculum used in Singapore.

Also, I enjoyed reading John Mighton’s “The End of Ignorance”.  Mighton is the playwright behind the JUMP Math system.  Based in Toronto, I think.

Both our experience with the Singapore system and Mighton’s book have raised questions for me, such as:
* How did this whole NCTM (National Council of Teachers of Mathematics) thing get started?
* Shouldn’t boards and/or the Ministry of Ed justify to parents, in plain language, why a certain curriculum has been selected and implemented?
* Is it there something to Mighton’s suggestion of conflict of interest for some board staff who select math curriculum as some them also benefit form the publication of existing material?
* Is there anybody out there with the knowledge and the time to do a consumer report on some of these programs?  IE: pros and cons of NCTM math versus Singapore Math versus JUMP Math.
* Why does this have to be so bloody difficult?

Just thought of something else.

What about financing?  Could it be that systems financed through more “local” taxes (ie: property taxes) lead to more unequal outcomes?  The thought being that higher property taxes would be based on higher property prices which would be a reflection greater socio-economic prosperity.  Presumably, more available money, all else equal, would lead to higher educational outcomes.

Anything here?

David,

You really open a can of worms when you open up the tax system. It is easier to create fairness on “ability to pay” with centralized (provincial) systems because the tax or at least more of it can be placed on progressive or ability to pay systems like income and corporate taxes. Property tax is more regressive and can, and usually does fall in an unfair way on “widows trying to keep their house” situations. The problem is that when you give up the local tax system, to a very large extent you give up any real sense of local control and accountability. There are theoretical models (tax points to municipalities) but I am unaware of jurisdictions that haave made them work.

I favour a total city/county take over of the physical plant. The city would own and control the buildings, grounds, and all employees except teachers. The board would control only the program and employ only teachers. A caretaker could work in a school one year and be transferred to a community centre the next. This works in London UK. The Inner London Education Authority ILEA is the equivalent of the TDSB but employs only teachers and debates only program. It acts as a subcommittee of the London city. The members are city councillors who specialize in education. The only problem in making a similar system work here is the existence of the catholic system.

My daughter would scream and go directly into a panic attack at the mere mention of math. I’m positive every female teacher must have told her that math is hard for girls. Grade 5 and this girl could barely add a single digit number, heck she didn’t even know what a digit was.

She is so incredibly proud that she has finished her first a whole JUMP workbook. Her exact words were “no one has ever finished a whole book before” in reference to her old classmates. The sad truth is Jump math is 2 workbooks per grade and her PS classmates couldn’t manage to finish just one workbook. I still have her PS workbook from the start of this school year, it has no more lessons than a single JUMP math workbook.

The other funny thing is my sons grade 3 class teacher began sending home JUMP math homework (and it was photocopies so I hope she has permission) and I was the one who told her about it.
In fact when we showed the teachers both Stairway to Reading and JUMP math they were floored and all admitted they have nothing close to this quality.
One of our girl’s teachers even said (on the QT) that if we home schooled (wink,wink) our main focus should be on English and math skills.

Two JUMP math books per grade would be $13.20 per student. Took my kids 6 weeks to finish one book and both are doing excellent in math.

Oh.. Mr.Little, so in places other than Ontario being poor doesn’t condemn you for life.

Other school systems are able to make a difference in the life of poorer students.

Time to task? What on earth stops a certified elementary teacher from teaching basic addition, subtraction, multiplication and fractions?

A certified elementary teacher is not organized enough to find time in a 9 to 2:30 school day to set aside “time to task” to teach basic math? Then why are students going to school?

A certified elementary teacher who went to teachers’s college for two years is not capable of teaching basic operations and fractions?
Why? Why are we paying 45.000 to 70.000 dollars a year for such a teacher?

One of the biggest factor, that plays hard ball with student achievement is the funding formula the costs of education per student, and how schools are funded, based on student population. The larger the student population, there is an increase in funding. However, the funding formula does not give much leeway, in spending more per student in the educational portion, than what is apportioned out in the base, to account for student population variances and unique circumstances that is pertinent to the school and its community. The leeway and justification to spend more than what is alloted per student, is given to a small proportion of the student population, where their needs cannot be met in the classroom, using the same materials, resources as mandated by the education board/ministry. The problem here, is that the majority of the student population, if having difficulty in any part of the educational portion, are often denied the extra resources/help because it would throw the school’s budget out of kilter. Furthermore, the school has to seek approval at the board level, to go over and above the base dollars allocated per student. The problems can be as simple, as a student that needed extra practice sheets to the student who needed specific targeted reading help.
Curious thing that I have encountered, is the lack of stats at the school level, pinpointing the funds spent on students who need help, over and above what is received in the classroom. At the provincial level, one can get overall expenditures in SE, but not the breakdown of the expenditures, especially in the education portion. In most public education systems, and is a general rule, anything above what is supplied by the education system, books. workbooks, paper, teachers, and other resources, those expenditures go under special resources. I have never had it confirmed, because education systems are known and is a matter of practice, not to published the breakdowns of the expenditures in special resources/supports.
I believe the way schools are funded, the administration, and the rules/regulations imposed on the school, plays hardball with achievement figures at schools, causing uneven achievement levels among the student population. This is compounded by the social/income level of the parents. The higher the income, the higher the education, the more apt the parent will pick up the costs and responsibilities to ensure their child’s learning will keep paced with the other students.
When looking at the funding formula per student, it is applied evenly across the district, or across the provinces in some cases. The individual student receives the same proportion as every other student. The schools, that have a higher social/income ranking, are the schools that will have parents bypassing the rules/regulations, and go seek private services or take on the job themselves.
A few years ago, I had a conversation with a parent who was paying close to $450 per month for private tutoring, and she was justifying the costs, because the school and the board could not and do not have the money, to help her child. or the other children that need help in reading and writing, over and above what is given inside the classroom.

Nancy and Malkin, what resources are you aware of that disclose how education dollars are spent and allocated?

I’ve found financial statements for individual boards on the board websites.  I find these statements to be so generalized that they’re almost useless (not quite, but close).

Also, does anybody know if the Ministry discloses the funding formula someplace?

Try this site
http://sunshineonschools.ca/default.aspx

David V, at the school board level, it does have far less details, and it is hard to make good inferences on the data available. However at the ministry level, these stats are available for school boards, breaking it down to teacher salaries, education portion, transportation, and so forth. What it does not do, is give the breakdown of the individual categories, to follow the flow of the money, right down to the individual schools. Every year, it is announce in some form or fashion, the education costs per student, usually done by a politician to make it look good that they are doing something wonderful for education. It is that figure, that is used to fund the schools based on the whole population. That figure includes transportation costs, teachers salaries, which are the two biggest expense items, and the numbers used are at the total costs at the board level and not at the individual schools. Let’s just say, there is $6000 for each student, which includes teacher’s salaries and transportation. What happens to schools with lower costs in teachers and bus transportation, is that they are force to use the higher numbers at the board level. It leaves them with less money to fund the other parts of the school. Other parts such as supplies, art supplies, or even extra paper supplies for extra practice. At the school level, the administration is force to make decisions , and cuts take place in areas, that impacts the students who are struggling, and in areas such as art and music programs, school clubs, and other areas that are not considered cored subjects. As I was cruising the provincial stats in my province, I discovered that capital costs may be included as part of the costs, which leaves even less money for the individual schools, and a question if the boards are financing large capital projects on the backs of the students. It might explain why rural schools are taking the brunt of the cuts, while urban schools are taking far less of the cuts. Regardless, if this is the case, than $6000, has been whittled down to an easy $1500, and then this is reduced by the costs of the school , where the ministry or the board does not provide. One day, I crunched the numbers, and there would be about $200 left for anything extra and above. It could explain why LD students are left out in the cold, and the big reason why their isn’t any programs specifically to target their weaknesses, other than remedial help, that is given to all students, making no distinctions between the normal, and other children who fall into the various groupings of SE.
As for the actual funding formula, the education authorities will not produce one, knowing full well, there will be a war.I can only state there is one, from my prior knowledge of accounting, reports, published studies, and politicians/teachers discussions.  In some states, some parents are demanding to know how the education dollars flow, and in some cases they have been successful at the board level, but not at the state level. In Canada, the provinces have made it difficult to follow the money unless you are part of the education system. It is where teachers’ unions are making sure they get their fair share of the formula, and become willing participants in telling parents that ‘little Suzie’  will not get help, for various reasons.
The system is designed for the workers in the education system, and as well as the accounting practices. It is is the children who take the hit time and time again, and it reduces a child’s education needs, down to a widget, priced according to quality.

It’s important to note Nancy that the MOE has a link to school profiles at its site, BUT, it’s a vastly different compared to what was there under the previous government. Of particular interest to parents and communities then was the Variance Report which told folks exactly what boards did with their allocations.

Surprise, surprise…turned out that contrary to the union hype that boards did receive money for things like textbooks and libraries and it was boards not government that elected to spend that money elsewhere.

The truth was all there including a great breakdown of what the per student allocation was and what it included.

The Liberals promptly nixed any of that great stuff.

Oh, and those school profiles are almost 4 years old.

I am aware of the boards, but I was trying to get a general picture of what is occurring across Canada. The local board, in the province that I live in, is where I placed most of the blame why my child has never received timely help. The trustees are of no help, because their structure is set up to be the middle-man to approve funding for the operations of the board, and they have no say in the day to day operations of a school, the education portion. The parent councils are useless, and the setup, the structure is design to make them yes people, rubber-stamping anything that comes their way. Very little of the fund raising, if not none, go the way of providing software, and reading programs, etc., for the kids who are struggling. So between the CEO of the board and the trustees, they hold the purse strings, and the power to steer the direction of schools, anyway they choose, and there is not much at the ministry’s level, that they can change the processes and structure.
It is why I usually bypass the board, and speak directly to people at the minister’s level, because I can show the relationship between dollars spent and not living in the spirit of the guidelines mandated by the minister. There is a lot more to it, but I do think if parents understood the structure, the beast of education, change would happen a lot quicker. But that would mean accountability measures, where boards and teachers’ unions would fight tooth and nail.

To Europe;

Of course it is possible to mitigate the problems of poverty in schools, that is my entire point. Korea has slashed their class sizes and had dramatic improvements. Japan, like Finland, recruits the best students to be teachers, gives them huge amounts of prep time, as most Asian countries do. Americans have the least prep time per teacher which is one more reason why they suffer.

My whole website is dedicated to the elimination of the Learning Gap between the poor and the rest but it is not cheap. It is very expensive but it is still cheaper than not doing it.

Dear Europe,

You need to keep in mind that Canada has an excellent school system with excellent results. Many countries site us as a system to emulate, especially south of the border. You seem to approach education like an engineer, just put the nut on the bolt where is the problem? I would just love to place you in charge of a grade 2 class so that you can find out how difficult and complex it actually is. For those home schoolers who say, “hey this is easy” take a look at your class size and composition. Try it again with 20 poor kids. You won’t make it to Christmas.

Thank You, Doug!
Yes!
I agree!
I don’t want any more than my two kiddo’s! It’s a hard job
I’ve been offered math tutoring jobs…turned them down!

I don’t care how educated you are how can you give individual attention to any one student in a class of 20+ kids. What does that work out to? Ten minutes per kiddo if you’re lucky? In a perfect world that would be 50min per kid, per week….Ya right.
Systemic failure, you are a failure to almost 50% of your kiddo’s.
It’s not the teachers fault… but it is the many ego’s (and pay scales) within the “system”.
The system as a whole needs to be reformed.

We can’t afford more teachers and we need to use the ones we have to their full potential. They need properly trained EA’s who do nothing but teach small group scripted remedial English and math. With a plan that also teaches the parents to use the same script. Weekly assessments. Intervention.
An inclusive system of education that is fair to the teacher, trims the non producing fat, puts the excuse makers, pacifiers and hand patters back in the trenches.

It can be done, my kids are proof of that.
That’s my heaven Doug

Doug, I can assure you where I live, you would be the one drowning, I would not last 3 days in any classroom. You seem to have a stereo-type, an image of a low-income child and their parents. The ones we have around here, made not be well educated, but they do know the difference between a teacher with a canned script provided by the board and the ministry, to the teacher, who does without one, and works around the rules to provide that kind of instruction that some kids need. My daughter had a few, and it was in those grades that she blossom, and there was more cooperation between myself and the teacher. What Europe has suggested is the way to go, if anything, even the top researchers in the cognitive field, have shown, that 60 % of the children in any classroom, benefits from direct explicit instruction. Little of that is happening inside our classroom, and when it is, it is directed at a few selected students, after lessons are over with.

Mark, that is telling it like it is. Don’t forget the fact, that 20 to 30 minutes is taken up for instruction time, leaving only 30 to 40 minutes , of personal instruction, that maybe 4 kids at the most will get personal instruction. My daughter’s most common complaint, she is ignored when she has a question or two about the homework. I have lost track a long time ago, where I am the one re-teaching the lessons of the day, at home. And it is teachers like you Doug, that will use excuses that blames my kid, and right down to using her own learning problems as a reason not to give her one-to-one instruction. I have heard some real pathetic excuses, but the best one, it is not my job. Yes, Doug, you should listen to Mark, and look at the whole system, the many facets, and a good place to start is within the teaching profession and how unions influences teachers not to have the best intentions for their students.

I don’t oppose DI. I oppose it all day every day. I was a history teacher. I was often at the front of the room explaining Hannibals route to Italy, the invasion of Normandy, the eastern Front, many lessons were Socratic but some seemed more like a lecture. Teaching techniques are like a tool box from which educted professional teachers choose the appropriate tool for the job unemcumbered by those without teacher training.

High school history, not much of that is taught these days. Unless you count what I call the boutique history lessons, that concentrates on one era, or the other kind that should be called social studies, with a bit of history. History is a difficult subject to teach, and it takes a skillful teacher to make dry history in something that is breathing and alive, to wake up the kids today. Somehow, using pre-approve scripts, does not cut it, nor the busy projects of battle tactics, makes it come alive. I had two high school teachers that made WWII come alive, one coming from the perspective of a refuge and the other as a former pilot in the air force. At least they were willing to answer questions, that kids normally do, such as the one my daughter asked, why didn’t anyone kill Hitler, before he did any damage. Apparently, that question was not on the menu, and it was left up to me why the powers to be, let Hitler play his games, while he stripped away the protections of the German constitution of his citizens, to begin his terror on the world.

In Ontario grade 10 is Canadian History 1900-present. Grade 11 history have options but we stressed Ancient and Medieval history. Grade 12 Modern World history. Which one did the kids love the most. Grade 11 history because it took them far away and a long time ago. They loved discovering the answers to why the world is the way it is today. They say the most histerical things. One day I asked what do we still have today that bears the names of Julius and Augustus Caesar? I was going for July and August. Bill at the back of the room who never volunteered an answer was pumping his hand so I asked him. Bill, what common thing d we still have today that bears the name of Julius and Agustus Caesar? Sir I know it is the salad. :-( LOL.

No one said DI all day! Of course not.
We do one hour Stairway to Reading and one hour JUMP Math, sometimes I break early but not often. Everything else could be taught in a regular classroom setting.

You must do more than lip service to the parents as they too could provide a roll in the education of their child. With minimal training and the correct material they could maintain and positively reinforce the teachers work on days off and holidays. You point the finger at parents when they are not the educators. Most parents are making it up as they go. We now have the core (S&R and JUMP Math) of a comprehensive plan and it’s better than anything we ever got sent home from the school board.

If you caught bulk of the remiedial kids at the elementary levels you would have better performing HS students and IMHO far less behavioural issues.

Yes, I agree with you, Mark about fewer behavioural issues; better performing students, and on top of everything, all of this would make the teachers look better, and their job would be easier.
I don’t understand why the teachers’ union seems to shoot itself in the foot by not working with parents…

In actuality, neither JUMP Math nor Stairway to Reading are “DI.”  Both are explicit, sequential instructional programs (and highly interactive, not lecture based), but capital-D, capital I DI refers to one of two things:

“Differentiated Instruction.” This is a formalized version of the individualization of lessons that teachers have always done. In its current incarnation, it is based on the workl of Carol Tomlinson from the University of Virginia.  You can find out more about this DI here: http://www.ualberta.ca/~jpdasddc/incl/difinst.htm

And here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differentiated_instruction

The Ontario MOE has mandated DI at all levels in all subjects as an alternative to Special Education. So far, however, empirical research has not shown that it leads to significant improvement in student learning.  It does not in any way address skill gaps in students who are years below their peers in basic reading, written language or math.  Making foldables in history may enable them to participate in class, but their reading deficits remain. 

The other capital-D, capital-I DI refers to a curriculum and set of programs (together with some teaching practices) developed from the ‘60’s onward by Engelmann, Becker and others from the University of Oregon. These include programs in reading, elementary math, middle school math, algebra, oral language (spoken English for ELL , developmental language for young children including lots of verbal reasoning and sophisticated analysis), mechanics or written language, reasoning and writing,(up through middle school level), spelling, reading comprehension (up through middle school level) and maybe some others I can’t think of at the moment.  They aren’t set up for whole class use, but are extremely effective in resource settings, tutorials, small groups and many parents use them 1:1 for homeschooling or afterschooling.

Here’s more on this DI:

http://www.newhorizons.org/spneeds/inclusion/teaching/marchand martella ausdemore.htm

Direct instruction, without 2 capitals, merely refers to any system of explicit, teacher-directed learning, usually of a sequential set of skills or body of knowledge.  It is often combined with appropriate student exploration and self-directed activities in other parts of the instructional sequence. The two are not mutually exclusive. Some things are most parsimoniously taught directly and efficiently (how long would it take students to “discover” the Periodic Table or the structure of DNA?), but then they can take those skills and knowledge and use them in a variety of ways.

More on this “di”:
http://olc.spsd.sk.ca/DE/pd/instr/direct.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_instruction

Explicit teaching of early reading skills is a bonanza, because a child can go from a non-reader to a Grade 4-5 level in a couple of months and be able to enjoy reading whatever s/he wishes. The “leveled books” that are all the rage now are deadly boring and I can’t imagine any kid wanting to hide under the covers with a flashlight to read one.

Dear Mr.Little,

I cannot possibly call a system where 40% of grade 3 students don’t know how to read, write and do basic math excellent. Our opinions are highly different here.

I have not said teaching is easy.
I have said that somebody who is a certified teacher and paid specifically for their ability to teach between 45.000 to 70.000 a year should be able to do it.

It is irrelevant whether or not I can teach.
Can you design bridges? Probably not, and you shouldn’t be able to if you are not being paid for that.

Can you translate into and from German? Probably not, and you shouldn’t be able to if you are not being paid for that.

Is it possible to teach reading and writing and basic math like addition and long division with 20 students in a class?

Certainly. I’ve lived it.
We were 35 in a class, every one of us knew how to read and write at the end of grade 1. 
My elementary teacher in grade 1 to 4 only graduated from “teacher’s high school”.
“Teacher’s high school” was a specialized high school that specifically prepared elementary teachers for grades 1 to 4 in how to teach reading, penmanship, basic math, phys ed and music.

So no, I don’t think we need to pay yet more money for salaries or extra years of teacher training and PhDs to teach grade 1 to 4 how to read and write, for God’s sake !

We need a different kind of teacher training and different teaching methods or we need to be able to choose people that are able to teach regardless of how they achieved that ability.

It is not only my experience.
It is the experience other people from other countries have had; countries poorer than Canada such as China or Russia.

Dear Europe,

15 year old Canadians read better than any nation in Europe, in fact any nation on Earth except Finland and Finland is only ahead by a tiny fraction. It has no relevance whatsoever how grade 3 students read although I don’t accept your data for one second. It is 1000 times more important how 15 year old read and you never seem to address that. Canadians read English and French better than Germans read German. Are we clear on that?

The data continues to show that the more education the teachers have, and the higher their certification, the better the kids do. These are not opinions these are facts. Your anecdotal opinions to not stand up. You have a right to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

Bev, the teachers union does work very closely with parents. Just not the paents you know. They are very happy to work with People for Education and in Toronto with The Campaign for Public Education. There are similar groups in Ottawa and other cities. There are lots of left-of-centre parents all across the big cities demanding that much more money be spant on education and of course, fighting cutbacks.

The teachers`s unions represent teachers not parents.People for Education is on your side-we`ve already figured that out….

I am only arguing that the word “parents” gets thrown around a lot here as if parents were one homogenous group that supported Bev and Malkin and Doretta etc. They are not, in fact these opinons are legitimate but at the margins. There is a reason why governments, even Tory governments tend to ignore this opinion. The Mowat Block, the teachers, CODE, OPC, P4E, CPE, and all the rest are there telling the gov’t that SQE is highly marginal and not to be taken seriously.

Doug, over 60 % of students have the ability to read, write and do simple numeracy, not necessarily in their head. What the 60 % share, are poor skills in some aspect of one part or all. Here is a link, that discusses PISA/PIRL assessments. It concludes, “On the good news front, for each of the four international benchmarks for PIRLS performance (low, intermediate, high, and advanced), the percentage of U.S. students that reached the benchmark was higher than the international median percentage. Importantly, the percentage of U.S. students achieving at least the low international benchmark showed a statistically significant increase between 2001 and 2006 from 94% to 96%. Students at this level were able to recognize, locate, and reproduce explicitly stated details and make straightforward inferences from literary and informational texts.
These results confirm what most reading experts have known for some time. Generally speaking, U.S. students are not lacking in basic reading skills.” 
What I will conclude from reading the last sentence, is that U.S. students have poor skills in picking out the fine details of reading text. They are able to get the big picture, but have difficulty in breaking down the big picture.
http://www.reading.org/General/Publications/ReadingToday/RTY-0802-pisa.aspx

Go ahead, Doug read the article, the gap is widening between the good and poor readers, even in other countries where English is the main language. The reading skills that are really needed such as fluency are not really taught in our schools, and by high school it is 10 times harder to teach the skills by the time students are teenagers. In high school, it appears to throw the poor readers, into the applied stream and hope for the best, and when the students graduate, it will be the colleges turn to take a crack at it. If you need any more evidence, there is 1 to 2 year courses at the college level, that are really a mix bag of remedial reading, writing and numeracy. These courses are filled to the rafters, as are the adult schools, offering the same courses. As for anecdotal evidence, most science hypotheses start out with a question based on anecdotal evidence. Do not quickly dismiss personal observations, especially parents such as myself who have been living it, the education system for a very long time, and in my case since 1960, with 3 years off.  Europe is correct in her observation, as I would agree with her, everyone in my class were in or at the same level in reading skills, writing skills, and basic numeracy and it was a class of 42 of us, until we reach high school. Than we all went our separate ways, and where I almost went to Lewiston, New York, because my father was seriously thinking of moving there. Meanwhile, well he was thinking about it, he went through the motions, and he visited the schools, tolling myself and my younger sister with him. I had to take a test, and back than I saw it as a general knowledge test. It turned out, if we had moved to Lewiston, New York I would have skipped a grade. The principal of the school, was very impressed and wanted to know more about the school that I attended, since the school was in a rural setting, as opposed to the Lewiston, New York which I would called it an up-scale and bedroom community for neigbouring Niagara Falls and Buffulo. I got through high school, without studying hard, because I had excellent reading and writing skills, and imagine if I had taken the extra mile back in those days, and actually studied, reviewed my notes, etc, I would probably have received a 90 something average. When I decided to study, I always received the highest grade, while the two brown-nosers that always sat at the front, were glaring at me.

I am on a row Doug.
I think Doug, that you have forgotten what it is to be young again, and what made you tick back in your youth. I got away without studying much, because lessons were taught differently, and often tests were based on the lectures/lessons inside the classroom, and not from the textbook. The textbook was the guide, and the teacher produced their own lessons. The more years under their belt, they could always spot a slacker such as myself who could do better than what they were doing. Teachers were different back then, they actually went the extra mile for students especially those who were not doing so well in a course. I did not appreciate the teachers as I should have, but than again I was a teenager. I appreciate them now, but that and a few more years, one can have some perspective and the luxury of having 100 % hindsight.  Direct implicit instruction was the norm back than, some teachers did better than others, but one thing I do know, the teachers I had their first degree was in the subject area taught, than came the teacher’s certificate. If anything, they knew their subject content. Today, we might find a high school teacher with a BA in education, teaching math. As I have observed with all my children, the teachers who have degrees in the subject, are often the better teachers. Now going back into elementary school, I do not think you need specialized teachers at the level, what is needed is better trained teachers in reading, writing and numeracy, so they are better able to articulate to the school board, what are the problems with the curriculum that keeps changing, as if it is a simple change of paint colour. My daughter has undergone 5 major changeovers in math curriculum, 4 major changeovers in language arts curriculum, and she has not finished grade 9. As TDSB states, ” The Ontario MOE has mandated DI at all levels in all subjects as an alternative to Special Education. So far, however, empirical research has not shown that it leads to significant improvement in student learning.  It does not in any way address skill gaps in students who are years below their peers in basic reading, written language or math.  Making foldables in history may enable them to participate in class, but their reading deficits remain.”  And from what I have seen, it is mandated in the regular curriculum, At the high school level, nor does DI address or even acknowledge that a growing body of students are lacking the essential skills needed to do high school work without a degree of struggle, at the beginning of an unit, and a place where most should not have to struggle in the first place.
I once told a university professor, who I thought had some influence over the province’s math curriculum, and I went on stating whoever approves of the curriculum, are egg heads. He burst out laughing, in between his chuckles, he told me that was the prefect descriptive term for the ones that are in the public education system. He went on to state, the sad tale, on how universities have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for the ministry of education, to use their expertise to consult with them on curriculum. At the university level, they are not impress with the reading, writing and numeracy skills of our students, and most of the blame is on the canned curriculum. I talked to another professor who teaches math, and was alarmed at her own child’s lack of ability in basic arithmetic, needed not only to navigate throughout life, but the foundation needed to take math courses at the university level. She too, had to tutored her own child, and because she received a firm foundation in math skills, she is an engineer today.

Doug, as you stated, “They are not, in fact these opinions are legitimate but at the margins. There is a reason why governments, even Tory governments tend to ignore this opinion. The Mowat Block, the teachers, CODE, OPC, P4E, CPE, and all the rest are there telling the gov’t that SQE is highly marginal and not to be taken seriously.”
So parents like myself are at the margins. Funny thing, I received many thanks today, for phoning the ministry of education, and she went on to say, we have only a relative few parents phoning us to talk education and the issues. We are being listened too, because of our breathe of knowledge. We are not talking just for the sake of talking, we know what we are talking about. Once you have a parent advocating for their own child, at the upper levels of the public education system, we go under a transformation, where we are pinpointing the systematic problems within the system, and as a result, we end up not only speaking for ourselves, but I am also speaking on the behalf of all parents. We become knowledgeable on a great many fronts that impact education and the schools, We are able to do that, because we have higher skills and abilities to learn reams of material and knowledge, and as we learn to advocate (which is a science in itself), there is a transformation that occurs, for some it is sooner, for others it is later, but we begin to advocate for all children.
We are not sitting on the fringe line, we are far closer than than, what has not happened as of yet, there is not the numbers. One thing parents do not have to worry about is the politics, but other organizations that advocates for education such as the LD associations, have to worry, because in part their funding is dependent on government monies. Once a parent moves pass the fear of their child being hard done by the teacher, because of the parent’s advocating for their child, the parent advances their self-taught education, into all aspects of education, seeking understanding and how it impacts their child and other children as well. Many parents as of now, are silent but that does not mean they do not have the same concerns. Get out in the real world, and you will be surprise what is said about the public education system. Even I am shocked at what is coming out of parents mouths, and the venom that is spewing out and directed at the local school.
One day in the not so distant future, there will a class action law suit directed at the public education system, and the first parents to sign up, with their evidence already sorted and boxed, are parents like myself. I even instructed the family, in case something happens to me, never destroy the contents of the boxes, and sign on to the law suit when it comes. It is a matter of time, and the issue will be, and what the courts will decide, what are the necessary components and skills that are needed to advance one’s education, or something along that line. I am not a lawyer, but I have spent months on the legal aspect, combing education rulings and trying to answer a question why the educators do not do more for their kids, especially those who are struggling. The simple answer, is that for the most part court rulings have gone in favour for the education institutes, because a teacher only has to show that he put out an effort, to help that child, and not that the effort was effective. And Doug, it is a hot item on the national teachers’ association and as well on the national principals’ federation. Right now, they feel assured, that few if any court cases will hurt them. But they are talking about a single person filing a law suit, and a class action suit is a total different kettle of fish. It is not the money, we are seeking a wholesale change of the education system, and the way it has operated since the mid 70s.
By the way, it was the Harris government and in his office, they moved mountains, with a single phone call,  to have my child be labeled special needs, so she could go to the two nursery schools and where it would be subsidize. Children who only had a speech delay were not thought of having a special need, but I made prefect sense to them, that she should go to two different nursery schools, to promote her speech, to be surrounded by other normal children and have her prepared for entry to the school system. Mind you, it helped that I had medical professionals and other professionals backing me up, but even here there had no influence in the bureaucratic red tape, that really does not allow for the exceptions. Last time I check, it was a Tory government.

Nancy,

Your posts are so long and so dense with few paragraph breaks so they take forever to read and seem to follow a “stream of consciousness” approach.

I have been in politics and education all my life. That is why the subtitle of my site is “The politics of Education in Canada”

Politics is not that complicated. If you start to generate a really significant group of people that believe a certin direction needs to be followed, first one party and later maybe 2 will shift their policies to accomodate your views. I have seen all of the polling on many of these question both during my OSSTF period and after as I continue to do some work for Vector polling. Many of the positions put forward here seldom drw more than 15% positive opinion. Testing is the exception where 70% support it but would also support less testing. Even here the number is falling as the population seems to be saying “what did we get from it?” You will not make headway until the critical mass number of about 40% hold a viewpoint like vouchers or charters. There is nothing like that today. The public school popultion views all money given to private schools, charters or vouchers as money stolen from the PS system which they also believe is underfunded. You have a tough row to hoe.

Glad you mentioned Vector, it was just the other day I was talking to another person, about PR firms disguised as public opinion research. Its too bad, that organizations like the unions have the resources to do just that. These companies exist in our world today, because opinion seems to highly valued over actual facts, and the public has a difficult time to sort out opinion and facts. But the message is not lost to the listener, and this is where the spin comes in.  Furthermore, in some cases policies are based on nothing more than public opinion research. It might be fine for the company who is manufacturing a new product, but for unions, and other associations,  their product is a position, and in the end they are selling spin.

Nancy, Nancy, Nancy,

The public are asked totally not spin questions like
“Do you support the proposal of PC Leader John Tory to provide funding to religious schools beyond the catholic schools funded today” The answer to a question like that would be 15% YES 85% NO.

Asking questions that contain spin or so-called push polls do not do the client any good. They need to know the exact lay of the land + or - 4% 19 times out of 20.

Vector Research and Development Inc. client list reads like a who’s who of Canadian unions.

http://www.vectorresearch.com/clients.php

And you say you are not a union shill….really? Funny how you don’t use the full proper name of this company.
The research from this source could be seen by many as suspect and biased.

Pretty good read. Hopefully we need a different kind of teacher training and different teaching methods or we need to be able to choose people that are able to teach regardless of how they achieved that ability. Thanks for allocation

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