All depends WHY they believe the system is inadequate. I consider the system inadequate. We don’t spend enough money, the classes could still be smaller. We need to keep smaller schools open, we need high quality teachers in every classroom which does not come cheap, testing causes dropouts unnecessarily, we are behind on renovations and new schools, it is hard to keep up on technology spending and textbooks.

If you ask me, the system is inadequate because it is $3-4 billion underfunded.

If you think the answer is public funding for private schools, however, only 15% see that as a solution. That issue has been settled for all time in Ontario by the severe drubbing given to John Tory. According to the polling I have seen at Vector, almost 0% of Liberal and NDP supporters support funding private schools and less than half of Tories support it. The Green Party wants to abolish the catholic system. If people are offered the option “either fund all religious schools or defund the catholic schools”, 70% say defund the catholic schools.

what about the Harris/Decima report don’t you understand Doug. Pretty clear I think.

As money is no guarantee of quality your argument falls flat again.

Mr Sheep,

I explained that “discontent” can come just as much from progressives who think not enough is being spent as from traditionalists who think (wrongly I might add) tht money does not buy quality. Is money a guarantee of quality? Lck of money is certainly a guarantee of failure. Witness California nd in fact the entire USA.

Buying a car? Money = quality
Bottle of wine? Money = quality
Buying a house? Money = quality
Hiring a CEO? Money = quality
NHL player? Money = quality
Hiring a lawyer? Money = quality
Diamond ring? Money = quality

Seems whereever you go in our society, there is a powerful relationship between money and quality. Our facinating capitalist system puts a value on everything and since quality is scarce, it goes up in value and therefore higher quality things cost more.

Oh wait, I forgot about one area of the economy. There is apparently no relationship between money and quality when teachers or the education of the community is involved. It is the one area where all of the rules of supply and demand do not apply.

ROFLOL, (role on floor laugh out loud).

If you think you are going to get the money you say we need you might want to step back from the crack pipe. How old are you Doug? We have a massive crises looming on the horizon as the baby boomers reach their 60’s and 70’s. Half of them are poor and short of a soylent green solution there will be little money to be had. Few more years and you’ll be in an old age home Doug, I bet you will have a big smile for that untrained PSA ( with grade 3 english and math skills) changing your catheter….if and when it gets changed.

Grades K to 8
We need to get back to basic’s on English and math skills.
We need to simply the curriculum to allow time for English and mathematics.
We need concise plans that identify and tracks the weekly progress of students. All students.
We need to bring a system of EA’s or tutors into the schools. Fire any teacher who can’t train their EA’s.
We need a plan that includes the parent as an instructor.
We need concise parenteral instruction on how to use said plans and materials so that these studies can be continued at home and on weekends and holidays.
We need the MOE, unions and the teams of excuse makers to stop sucking on the money that is suppose to be for our children.
We need to fire the people who are not on the floor, as the lack of centralized remedial planning prove they are not doing their jobs.

High school,
Fix the problems before they get to high school and you will have smarter better behaving students.

I really doubt if there will be a change till the public is fed up, but with new technology (web) that day may be sooner than you think. Damn peasants are revolting.
I also doubt that any change would be on time for my kids, as not much has changed since I was an SE kid 40 years ago.
We will continue with homeschooling because quite frankly we’re doing a better job than the PS system.

I’d love to say more on this subject, but I have to run… I have JUMP Math and Stairway to Reading lessons to teach.

Buying a car? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place
Bottle of wine? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place
Buying a house? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place
Hiring a CEO? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoloy in place
NHL player? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place
Hiring a lawyer? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place
Diamond ring? Money = quality
  unless there’s a monopoly in place

What we currently have in Ontario education is a monopoly because although we pay money as taxpayers we have no choice in how our money gets spent.

Yes, I’m learning very quickly education is political.

Mr.Little has acquired a very high degree of skilll in not ever answering a question, in talking down to people and trying to bully them and in applying nazi’s Goebbels propaganda technique - if you repeat something often enough people will believe it.

He and others like him have masterfully set up the education discourse between
a) the so-called experts who know everything - but how to teach - and whose only answer to everything is more money
and
b) the lowly, uninformed, right-wing or left-wing parent who should not question anything done to their children.

When the students performs well it is because of the education system - let’s conveniently forget about private tutoring and the parent’s teaching their children at home!
When the students don’t perform well then it is because the student is POOR, his parents drink or who knows what.

If that’s not irresponsability and demagogy I don’t know what is.

Thank you, Mr.Little for opening my eyes.
I have naively thought that there were a lot of good, if uninformed people in the education system.

I think there still are good people in the system, TDSW is a teacher I could accept for my son, however if Mr.Little is representative of the top, the education m-o-n-o-p-o-l-y is rotten.

Yes, Mr.Little let’s apply the capitalistic principles of competition to education!

I agree with everything Europe and Mark H. have said.
 
I find it strange that Mr. Little has to spend all of his time trying to debunk SQE members’ beliefs, and he does this by name calling, bullying, and repeating the same tired lies.  The union must be getting worried; otherwise, what’s the point?

Oftentimes when I hear the teachers’ union reps, and many teachers themselves speak, it sounds suspiciously like they’ve been coached.  One thing, they do repeat the same old rehtoric over and again.  They seem to know that repetition of whatever can eventually taken as fact by many.
 
For me (and I’m sure that I speak for many others here who blog) Mr. Little has accomplished the exact opposite of changing my mind about our public education; instead he has shown me how base the union-run monopoly we call public education really is.

I will add to the above comments, a study conducted in 2005, on the reforms at the high school level. It does suggest, that basic skills are lacking for students. “If this is not possible, then expect to encounter these views as noted and reported by the Ontario Secondary School Teachers Federation (2002):
Ontario’s reforms have systematically undermined the principles and practices of professional learning and community on which successful student learning directly depends. Ontario is “colonizing the sinking sands of standardization that other nations are now abandoning.“
The report notes that, in the one vocational school, the teachers declared unanimously that the new curriculum is inappropriate for their students. Less than 25 percent of teachers in all schools believed the applied curriculum was appropriate to the learning needs of students — this has recently been reinforced by King’s research documenting a “disastrous” failure rate in the applied courses. (Lipman, p. 1)“
Doug, putting in more money into a system can only be justified, by a wholesale change in priorities of the K to 12 system, where learning the essentials is given the highest priority, in an education model, that is not based on a business model, where students are measured as different grades of quality, and where the flow of money is directed at students who have the highest grade in quality, and the ones who have lower levels of quality either sink or swim. It should be an education model, that insures all students are at the same level of essential skills, so the students are able to apply their basic skills unto learning new knowledge.
The mess that is in our high schools, is directly related to a highly centralized system, that reduces education levels, and promotes a substandard education.
http://www.umanitoba.ca/publications/cjeap/articles/ryan_joong.html

Doug, take a good look at this study called Teachers’ and Students’ Perceptions of the Nature and Impact of Large- Scale Reforms . It is the above link, and it does explain why students like my LD daughter, why there is a push to put students like her in the applied stream, even though she is a A student.
I am just one of the many discontented parents out there, and no doubt it will grow each year.  But as parents our voices have been silenced, by the structure of the public education system, that is design to weed out constructive criticism directed at the many parts of the system.

The federations have no fear of those who want public money for private schools. That ship has sailed.

The smart nations, china, Taiwan, France, Germany, Brazil many others are stepping up their investments in education spending more than ever before. The stupid nations led by the USA are cutting back despite the stimulus money.

The once fabulous California school system is now a train wreck due to something called Proposition 13 which limited the use of property tax for schools. They will be closing schools, laying off teachers, limiting the college opportunities of the kids.

One thing Mark doesn’t seem to get is that with public education, the more you spend the smaller your deficit will be because your productivity goes way up drawing in investment and reducing radically your expenditure on jails, courts, cops, health and many other gov’t expenditures.

Europe is very concerned that educaton is a monopoly. I think you know it will be remaining a monopoly way into the future. No political party in Ontario wants to change that because they read the same polls I do. To change it is to have a political death wish.

“That ship has sailed” - um, no it hasn’t. It’s not even begun, but hey keep your head in that cold dark place Doug because as the enrollments continue to decline and we see more educators and bureaucrats continuing to ask for more by doing less, and less and less, that dis-satisfaction is still brewing. The additional private and alternatives both inside and outside of the system support this.

Perhaps it’s high time for a homegrown Made in Ontario survey of parent satisfaction that asks even those who will never hope to have choice, if they could would they move out of the public system?

What I find amazing is how, like clockwork Mr. Little drops his daily bombs at several blogs. We call the trolls in the blogosphere. There purpose is not to debate or discuss it’s to add shock and awe value to the discussion, turn the discussion or shut it down completely.

Just saying…......

More on surveys for parent satisfaction, that Doug loves to quote. The questions are designed in such a way where you only have two choices - yes or no. On some, there is a neutral choice. It does not give a true picture of parent satisfaction, since the people who designed the survey, have already decided that parents have a high level of satisfaction, and now it is just designing questions to fit in their hypothesis of high satisfaction, to reflect the hypothesis.  Ditto for studies and reports that are coming out of the education levels within the K to 12 system, that are used to defend and protect the status-quo of the system, and ignore the systematic faults of the system.

I thought so from the get-go that these surveys were skewed to turn out the way the OSSTF wanted them to…

I pointed out that a dissatisfaction survey is no indication of testing/charter support because most lack of satisfaction is based on the system not spending enough money. Even I am dissatified on that score.

Our surveys are not corrupted. The people who pay for them want a true picture of the situation.

They were very happy when John Tory’s plan only drew 15% support. This meant it would be a major wedge issue against him and cost him the election.

Keep talking Doug, you make our case with every sentence.

surveys are paid for and get the picture they wish..and then they twist it some more for effect.

Reports and studies commissioned by the various parts of the education system, is an eye opener, when you look at the credentials of the authors. Most authors have been hired on as a consultant, to give the public the feel of an independent report, and the look of official importance, with the fancy letter behind their name. Often here, if the report is on math, literacy in schools, or another aspect of schools, the consultants degree is in education and administration, but not a degree in the subject area that is being studied. The reports that actually have the consultants that have backgrounds in the subject that is being studied, are reports that are asking for changes, condemning the present approaches used and are recommending wholesale change to the topic field. These reports, sit on a dusty shelf , until the demand from the public or within the system is demanding changes once more, and the route is to spend more money, to add another report to sit on the dusty shelf.
There is a math report done a few years ago in NL, by an consultant whose degree is in education. The report amounted to cosmetic changes, with added emphasis on the basics of math. The evidence that was used in this one report, was research done more than 20 years ago, and the newer research was heavily cherry-picked, to support that there should be no change of direction in math. Completely ignoring the math research that has taken place in the last 10 years, where a firm foundation in math is necessary and vital to do advance math with some ease.
Now Doug, as a parent I am well verse on math and how math is taught in the schools, and where the school had written off my daughter, as being one who would never be good at math, by grade 3. By applying the new math research, my daughter is an A student in math. Her success, is a direct result of having a firm foundation in basic arithmetic and a deep understanding of the laws that lie behind arithmetic. Funny thing Doug, a novel practice in my daughter’s math class when a new unit is introduce, the class will spent 2 to 4 days working on the basics needed to be successful in the unit. Often she is the first one that will be allowed during that time, to either start the math problems in the unit, or she is free to do other things, well the other students practiced their basic math skills until they master it. From what my daughter tells me, they do not moved from the basics until well over 3/4 of the class have a good grip on the basic skills needed to do the unit. Wonderful for her self-confidence, and a wonderful motivator for her to work harder to improve her math skills, work independently and the can-do attitude, rather than to listen to that negative track inside her head, that other adults have put in her head a along time ago.

The most critical finding was the 15% that supported John Tory’s position. About as many as believe Elvis is alive. When OSSTF showed that poll to the Liberals they knew they could beat Tory black and blue at no cost to themselves.

It was at that point that Kathleen Wynne pulled ahead of Tory in his own seat.

Education privatization is a total non starter in Ontario but go ahead, try to convice even Hudak to go public with his support. He won’t because he reads the same polls I do. Whoever touches that issue dies a political death.