KIPP pushes out the unsuccessful students before important tests, burns out its teachers who refuse to stay, attracts only highly motivated families, and after all of this simply uses longer hours. The public system would be happy to use longer hours but it would either require more teachers or more pay for existing teachers.

The fact that KIPP has an over 300% turnover rate in teachers is telling.

Former KIPP teachers who now work in public schools come forward to say, total top down dictatorship, mindless test prep, push outs, etc.

Because it’s all about the students, right?

KIPP is famous for creaming students and when a weak one sneaks in that might bring down the dta they are pushed out. Selective schools always have this advantage even if they are in poor neighbourhoods.

Even poor areas have both the highly motivated and those who have given up. KIPP knows all the techniques to attract the former and repel the later. The problem is that somebody has to take the weak ones and the trouble makers and the ones with families in chaos. Guess who, the good old PS. KIPP just makes life in the public schools more difficult by stealing the spark plugs.

keep repeating the mantra, people will eventually come to believe it.

The Moynihan Challenge still stands.

Here is a more balanced article, on KIPP schools. One gets a sense that the turnover of teachers, may be that the teachers are not highly committed to the culture policies of the KIPP schools. Where even teasing another student, is taken as seriously as someone committing an assualt.. One gets a sense it is not the extra hours, or the teaching methods, but the committment that a teacher needs to work in a KIPP school.

http://www.hewlett.org/news/closing-the-education-gap

A link for Q & A on KIPP schools.
http://www.kipp.org/faq

one week trial folks….think about it. What is being demonstrated by Mr. Little usually has nothing to do with the original information provided by the posters.

note with interest that the usual first responder torques the information and once again derails the intent of the original post.

Just an experiment - one week? Maybe a review of all posts to this blog and a year end report card by the developers is in order?

We need in Canada a model similar to KIPP because it’s proving to be effective.

Or you could actually deal with the issues as Doretta and Malkin do or do just not have the arguments Mr Sheep?

I guess you noticed the “high student attrition” line in the story by the corporate sponser, alongside the high teacher turnover line. These are the weak students and the troubled students being sent back to the public schools to keep KIPPs numbers up.

“. These are the weak students and the troubled students being sent back to the public schools to keep KIPPs numbers up.“

Doug,the students who are leaving may very well not like the high standards of the cultural code of the KIPP schools. Just like some public schools have high standards of the cultural code, many of a student leave that school, for a easier code of anything goes. I believe that high standards in the culture code and policies can bring about greater change, than weak policies that waters down all values, where anything goes.

Let’s start with 100 mostly poor students whose achievement lower than average attending the neighbourhood public school.

Scenario A
All 100 of them remain in the same public school, they continue to be below average, most likely slipping farther and farther down from the average.

End result in Scenario A
- 100 students with grades below average

Scenario B
Some of them, let’s say 50 are admitted to KIPP.
Upon admission both the students and their parents commit to KIPP’s rules of hard work, longer hours and discipline.
Most of students admitted to KIPP can successfully keep up the hard work, the motivation, the discipline and remain in KIPP making it into college.
Some of them cannot and leave KIPP, having improved their skills and grades to some degree.

End result in scenario B
- 50 students in the public school no better no worse off than before
- 40 students through their hard work and commitment graduate KIPP and go to college having caught up and surpassed the average
- 10 students are in another school, perhaps the original public shool with a bit better grades and skills and before.

None of the original students is worse off.

Society is better of in Scenario B.

KIPP students - by proving that is possible to make up for big disadvantages if you have good teaching and you work hard - set an example that gives hope and motivation for other disadvantaged students.
Their example slowly changes the mentality of despair and indifference into the mentality yes, it is possible but you have to have good teaching, work very hard and make sacrifices.

Equality by dumbing everybody down is the wrong type of equality!
That’s what a lot of public schools do by using bad teaching methods and implementing agressive, demeaning political correctness.

Nancy you are.making the case that selective schools must not be given public funding. If KIPP can drive out low performing students the PS system must take them. After that they say look we outperformed the PS system. Well duh. If any system can dump its weak kids before the big test and its competitor MUST take them in and the first system adds almost one half year per year to the timetable and uses contracts to attract high motivated kids in the first place who do you think will have higher test scores? The problem is that the project is not scalable as somebody needs to take the weak and troubled kids and the FRI, JUN 25, 2010 kids and the ELL kids. Guess who? Old reliable.

your posts often fall into the “flaming” category Mr. Little. You often don’t respond to the posts in context but instead turn to your agenda which is to provoke and negatively.

That’s neither helpful to parents who come here to escape, or try to escape the same treatment they get from their local schools.

The public system and their chosen and failing programs simply are no longer the only or best option for families looking to get the best education for their children.

That the USA and other provinces have been able to extent the power of choice to parents leaves Ontario in the dust…as usual.

Most parents having endured advocating for their kids in the public system have one thing in common….they can’t wait until it’s over.

Young, old, rich, poor I give parents all the credit in the world for being able to choose what’s best for their kids.

The right to choose should not be the premium of only those who can afford it.

Organizations like SQE give those parents hope and an education as to just what the public system holds in wait for their children. Some is very positive indeed and some educators worth their weight in gold….but not all.

AParent is absolutely right, and Nancy too, keep up the great posts, you’re know when you’re hitting a sore spot with Mr. Little given that he seems to prefer to be critical of you the most.

My point of the suggestion of the one-week trial is just that. If it turns out that there’s more folks coming forward to speak about their experiences, their concerns and their support for more choice then that would be awesome….but we’ll never know unless we try it.

If in the absence of Mr. Little’s post we have nothing to say or discussion then by all means let’s continue on his hamster wheel.

I see SQE as being somewhat like the new Sun TV News network. It’ presents the other side that represents the silent majority that’s been drowned out by the data smog and union noise for far too long.

The days of bias even in education reporting by the usual left-leaning and union-supporting type are coming to a quick end.

Silent majority? Then let’s have a referendum on major ideas.

Fund Catholic schools yes or no?

Fund other religious schools yes or no?

Fund any private schools yes or no?

Would that not settle the matter democratically? What do you think Mr Sheep? At least we would know who is right you or me.

It is not at all what I have stated. Doug, you are trying to make a case, by completely ignoring the cultural and school policies. The cultural policies in some public schools are so watered down, that it will have few if any highly motivated students. As AParent stated, “Equality by dumbing everybody down is the wrong type of equality!
That’s what a lot of public schools do by using bad teaching methods and implementing aggressive, demeaning political correctness.“

In New Zealand, “Ministry of Education figures reveal that between 2000 and 2003 suspensions and stand downs in primary schools alone increased by 31%. The suspensions and stand downs related to alcohol consumption increased 25%, physical assaults on staff 40%, assaults on other students 33%, sexual misconduct 21% and sexual harassment 83%. (1)“

Now read the below link, what is the solution, Character Education.
http://cornerstonevalues.org/conduct.html

“Character education is about developing virtues good habits and dispositions that lead students to responsible and mature adulthood. Virtue ought to be our foremost concern in educating for character. Character education is not about acquiring the ‘right’ views - currently accepted attitudes that are politically correct or ideologically charged.

The school principal and the teacher are central to this enterprise and must be educated, selected and encouraged with this mission in mind, in truth, all of the adults in the school must embody and reflect the moral authority, which has been invested in them by the parents and the community.

Character education is not a single course, a quick-fix programme or a slogan posted on a wall; it is an integral part of the school life. The school must become a community of virtue in which responsibility, hard work, honesty and kindness are modelled, taught, expected, endorsed, and continually practised. From classroom to playground. from principal’s office to staffooom, the formation of good character must be the central concern. The human community has a reservoir of moral wisdom, much of which exists in our great stories, works of arts, literature, history and biography. Teachers and students must draw from this reservoir both within and beyond the academic curriculum.

Finally, young people need to realize that forging their own characters is an essential and demanding life task. And the sum of their school experiences - in successes and failures, both academic and athletic, both intellectual and social - provides much of the raw material for this personal undertaking.“
http://cornerstonevalues.org/charter.html

I came across it, while exploring the update in the Having Your Cake and Eating It Too, by Barbara Kay. “ Religious activists opposed to the program see it as a blatant case of social engineering, a statist indoctrination of children into the ideology of moral relativism. Their quite reasonable fear is that the course will convince impressionable children that no religion is unique or has any superior moral insight to offer or is worthy of special reverence.

As I wrote in a column at the time of its implementation, “The program is predicated on the worst possible educational model for young children: the philosopher Hegel’s ‘pedagogy of conflict.’ As one of the founders of the ECR course put it, students “must learn to shake up a too-solid identity” and experience ‘divergence and dissonance’ through ‘le questionnement.’ ”
Read more: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/22/barbara-kay-score-one-for-quebecs-religious-freedom/#ixzz0rsT7wuJg

Moral relativism was something I started to explore, and in my travels I found the above links. Note, the Catholic literature on this subject is extensive, and how moral relativism impacts children in a vile way, and by extension how it negatively impacts society.

Mr. Little if you and your union buddies had done your jobs in the first place, you wouldn’t be using all of your retirement time trying to debunk anything that doesn’t suit you and your precious union.  You put far more hours into this blog than you ever put into a working day.  Will you be taking the summer off?  What a way to spend retirement!
I’m very happy to see that KIPP is not only working, but working very well.  The mere fact that children aren’t even allowed to verbally tease also sends a strong message that the staff is doing their job.  In contrast, our poor children are being neglected academically and bullying is very often not delt with.

I am sure you are all confident that the public supports public support for private education so let’s have a referendum. Why is it that nobody wants to test this opinion in a referendum. Easy to settle the matter for once and for all. Mr Sheep says this is the view of the silent majority. We can test that easily with a vote of all Ontario voters. I am so confident that I am right about all of these matters that I will put it all up for a vote. Any takers? Very quiet on this question.

“I am sure you are all confident that the public supports public support for private education so let’s have a referendum. Why is it that nobody wants to test this opinion in a referendum. Easy to settle the matter for once and for all. Mr Sheep says this is the view of the silent majority. We can test that easily with a vote of all Ontario voters. I am so confident that I am right about all of these matters that I will put it all up for a vote. Any takers? Very quiet on this question.“

Doug, what you have written is an example of moral relativism. In this case above, moral relativism is what you live and breathe, by maintaining the stance of only one choice, public without ever thinking beyond it.

As noted here, “Now, the “relativism” I am arguing against here is, to be true, what is called “universal” or “unqualified” relativism, but that is the way it is normally presented. “There is nothing right or wrong, but thinking makes it so.“ The philosophical position of what is called “emotivism,“ a position taken by most if not all Logical Positivists (and put forth famously by British philosopher A.J. Ayer), and is technically nothing more than “ethical skepticism,“ results in moral relativism of the universal type. Arguments for ethical relativism are also presented in the works of Sextus Empiricus and Michel de Montaigne and many other philosophers. Ordinary people pick up this idea of ethical relativism and simply repeat it, usually without critically thinking about it.

And this type of ethical relativism is the common view. Professor Patrick Grim (State University of New York at Stony Brook) has aptly pointed out in his video course entitled “Questions of Value” (The Teaching Company) that “ethical relativism is usually put forward…as an absolute and universal claim that all values are culturally relative.“

http://radicalacademy.com/ethicsmyth2.htm

Thinking people, would never make the claim, “that I am right about everything”, but a person who practices moral relativism would indeed.

I am not saying I am right about everything but in the matters mainly discussed here such as public financing of any form of private education. Some people are in denial but seem to lack the confidence to put it to the voters. I would like to see SQE and FI and CDH demand a referendum on privae financing so we can decide this stuff and not argue endlessly. Of course I am 100% confident that public financing of any form of private education would be overwhelmingly rejected.

Now Doug you are watering down your own stance. If you feel so strongly about, why don’t you and the union brass demand the referendum. Why don’t you make your feelings public in a newspaper, along with your union buddies, if you are all that confident.

OSSTF would just love to have a referendum on these questions. There is this other group called OECTA that is not so keen notwithstanding that we would merge the seniority lists so that they would have job security.

Right Doug, it is all about the children. What is best for the children, and of course unions, and the top brass only want what is best for the children.  If you are that sure, why don’t you push it?  Perhaps the rush of cold water from the present Premier of Ontario is stopping the union, from forging ahead. Have you even thought about the ramifications of a teachers’ union being the lead, and a public one at that? 

How about some rational reasoning?

Huh? Are you in favour of one big vote on these questions yes or no? You are doing a lot of skating.

Doug, if you cannot pick up my laughter on you simplistic approaches to the complicated issues based on historical and cultural reference, on how education developed in Ontario and the other provinces, I cannot help you. It is not about funding. Although funding is an outcome, it is all about the parents being the ultimate authority on what is education and what they want for their children. And not some union who are only serving the best interests of their members.

Nancy, Hardly simplistic. We decide peace and war by voting, we decide life through capital punishment by voting. We need to put these private proposals to a vote and show that the public does NOT support them full stop. All of a sudden the excuses come out because you are quite aware that privatization of education is deeply unpopular.

As a parent, I do not believe for one second that I am the untimate authority on the education my child should receive.

We do not allow people to beat their children, we take children away from parents who want to raise them as Nazis, and we do NOT allow parents to make all of the decisions regarding the education of their children.

We ALL pay for education, not just parents. Childless people, and people with grown children still pay. All tax payers have a say on what they will pay for and what they will not pay for. We reflect these views through our parliaments ledgislatures and school boards. It is not an individual decision or a family decision unless you are willing to pay for it by yourself. If you want tax support, you need to go to a school the citizens of Ontario have decided to support with their taxes. You could not be more wrong.

When you are wrong at first principles it is hard to construct any argument after that point that stands up.

Wouldn’t it be great if we got KIPP schools here in Canada.

Given the fact that there is no big groundswell of support, I guess not. Are the private foundations going to pay the whole shot? There won’t be a cent from the government.

Says who? Are you the government?

It is in the government’s interest to pay for schools that have good results with students the current public schools are not capable to teach well!

Why not KIPP? It could be run as a public, non-profit charter school.
Indepenent so that the incompetents in the current public system cannot interfere!

Wouldn’t it be lovely ...just imagine.. your daugther will start grade1 in fall and you could choose between a public school, an academic KIPP school, an arts and music public charter school.

You don’t have to worry about standards because you know all these schools meet the Ontario curriculum.

You don’t have to worry about your daugther feeling excluded or pressuring you about clothing and expensive trips because only rich kids can afford to go to this KIPP school or to the arts school.

Since these schools are open to all kids and the tuition is funded by the government, you know that your daughter will be among kids just like her, that share the same love of arts or are the same kind of curious, inquisitive kids as your daugther is.

Since you talked to her about what she prefers, you know that if she slacks you can always remind her that it was her choice and that she made a promise to follow the school’s rules.

Since all the parents and the children would have signed an agreement about the goals of the school and the code of conduct you don’t need to worry about out of control kids that nobody does anything about.

Wouldn’t that be lovely ... and it is so doable.

Nancy,

Before I went to OSSTF I taught “The Politics of Ontario Education 1940-2003” at York University I think I have a passing understanding of the history,and politics of Ontario Education politics. Please don’t patronize me or attempt to talk down to me.

Says the government. They don’t pay for private schools and they car read polls that say if they did they would be finished.

Yes AParent.  It sounds like Tokyo and Singapore.  I had my children enrolled in private schools there.  They wer so competitive, that all ended up being excellent schools.  Competition is definately the way to go

Different subject—Bloggers, I remember hearing of an excellent preschool programme which originated in Australia and is so successful that it’s becoming international.  It wanted to open branches in Canada, but at least in Ontario, Dalton blocked it.
First, is this true, or just a rumour, and if true, how could our government get away with blocking a business from coming into Ontario?  I just thought of this when blogging about KIP coming to Canada.

“In U.S. law parents have the ultimate responsibility for, and authority over their children’s education. The crucial tests of this legal doctrine occurred in attempts to sue public school officials for malpractice, in cases where, for example, illiterate young people graduated from high-school. The U.S. Supreme Court (Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972)) defined the proper goal for education as “literacy and self-sufficiency,“ that is, an educated, not a socialized child was recognized as the essential goal for the U.S.‘s democratic republic. This decision is now interpreted as court recognition that parents have a fundamental right to choose the method to achieve literacy and self-sufficiency, that is to educate their children. “

http://www.fact-index.com/e/ed/education_in_the_united_states.html

Now for the flip side, and where Doug stands both feet firmly planted in the ground, that the state has the authority over a child’s education.

“Two issues deserve attention: (1) Judge Stephen Reinhardt’s claim that parents’ freedom regarding education is limited to choosing the schools to which they send their children; and (2) the doctrine of parens patriae, under which the judge ruled that the school district has the legitimate authority to look after not only the education, but also the mental health, of children.

Imagine a Wal-Mart customer demanding, as a matter of right, that the store manager carry certain items and not others. We understand that a customer’s right consists in patronizing or not patronizing the store. If he enters, he takes the store as he finds it. If he dislikes the store, he can go elsewhere.

Judge Reinhardt believes that, in educating their children, parents are in the same position as the Wal-Mart customer. He writes, “Once parents make the choice as to which school their children will attend, their fundamental right to control the education of their children is, at the least, substantially diminished. The constitution does not vest parents with the authority to interfere with a public school’s decision as to how it will provide information to its students or what information it will provide, in its classrooms or otherwise.”

This reasoning is plausible — except for one large detail. Even if parents choose private education, they have to pay school taxes. The choice is rigged. That’s unjust.

Parens patriae, or “father of the country,” is the doctrine that the state is the ultimate guardian of children. Judge Reinhardt wrote, “The questioning can also be justified on the basis of an alternative state interest — namely, parens patriae…. The School District’s interest in the mental health of its students falls well within the state’s authority as parens patriae. As such, the School District may legitimately play a role in the care and nurture of children entrusted to them for schooling.”
http://www.fff.org/comment/com0511e.asp

Now Doug, I am leaving this with you. Think real hard about democracy. In reality, democracy is at risk, every time the state moves to disenfranchised the citizens from exercising their rights and freedoms, concerning a child’s education.

Bev, I hope you didn’t mean corporate child care? Good thing he kept it out.

We decide democratically what schooling will be funded by public tax dollars. If it were not for a constitutional deal made 150 years ago we would not have a catholic system either because most Onterians oppose its existence.

Overwhelmingly they oppose extending that to other religions or secular private schools. Democracy trumps parental rights, period.

“We decide democratically what schooling will be funded by public tax dollars.“

Democratically eh?  The flip side, and what is often lacking is the accountability to the citizens. Go take another peek at the court cases. If you cannot see the rich irony in the second case….......

I stand by my position. I am a democrat. I think that is the best way to decide difficult questions.

Moral Relativism at its best, with Doug’s last post.

Almost all morality is relative.

Wouldn’t it be great if we got KIPP schools here in Canada.

We would have to get laws changed to permit it. Currently only Alberta permits charter schools, and I don’t know if their legislation would cover KIPP’s model or not.

KIPP also requires foundation and corporate backing to supplement the per-pupil amount they get from the district in which they operate. They have considerable additional expenses: higher teacher salaries, huge cell phone bills (they buy cell phones for every staff member, and encourage them to use it regularly including evenings and weekends), private busing and transportation, a “KIPP dollars” incentive system that lets the kids purchase items from schools supplies and laptop computers to field trips to places like New York City, San Francisco, Washington D.C;, extensive teacher training and mentoring,  These costs vary from school to school, but all spend much more than they receive in per-pupil funding..

Wouldn’t it be lovely ...just imagine.. your daugther will start grade1 in fall and you could choose between a public school, an academic KIPP school,.....

KIPP is primarily a middle school (Grades 5-8) program. They *have*  recently opened a couple of KIPP elementaries. It’s unfortunate that they are wedded to the same Whole Language/Fountas and Pinnell “curricula” that regularly fail about 30% of students. Data on the effectiveness of their K-4 programs is not available, but the kids who struggle with reading will have to be tutored or leave for some other kind of school—Fountas and Pinnell “Guided Guessing” won’t get them where they need to go, even with lots of extra time.

It would be up to KIPP’s founders, Dave Levin and Mike Feinberg, to decide whether to expand outside the U.S.A.  They have enough on their plate working with the desperate situation in many U.S. districts; it would be surprising if they wanted to take on another country.  Even if they did, the laws would have to allow that. They would need some Canadian financial and political backers, as well.

Christian community comes out against charters, Race to the Top test driven education etc.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/no-child-left-behind/christian-churches-oppose-race.html#more

You seem to know a lot about programs.

What programs or what type of schools would you suggest?

They are also up to their keester in fights to keep unions out of KIPP because of all of the disgruntled teachers who might like a minute to themselves but this would make them outcasts in the KIPP KULT.

Churches representing 45 Million Americans come out against choice and testing. This is a lot bigger than Diane Ravitch I would say. See link above.

Becoming hard to be both a Christian and a supporter of Choice and testing.

What Would Jesus Do?

According to this pastoral letter it seems he would oppose Charters and testing.

What programs or what type of schools would you suggest?

For whom and for what goals or purposes?  Different programs and school types address differing needs of students, families and society.  Moreover, some schools and programs aim only at particular grade levels or populations (KIPP is a good example; its target demographic is visible minority, low-SES kids in grades 5-8 who wish to prepare themselves for the college/university track in secondary school).

I’m sure the KIPP lovers here were thrilled to find out KIPP uses whole language.

A reporter from the Washington Post went to a KIPP school teacher’s conference:

“The teachers, decked out in every imaginable color and variety of KIPP T-shirts and polo shirts, radiated pride in the network’s 57 schools in 17 states and the District. Many of them knew that KIPP has the best achievement results for low-income children ever seen in this large a group of schools. But they also believe in and were drawn to KIPP because of their creative independence in their classrooms. Each KIPP school staff works as a team, agreeing among themselves which methods of teaching and discipline to use.“

Wow, sure sounds as if they are hard done by! ;-
)  Furthermore, sounds like they have the ability to choose which programs to use.  So, Doug, was your last comment just another ‘off the cuff’, or do you have sources to back it up?

Here is a link to the article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/07/AR2007080700572.html

Your prejudices are showing, Mr. Little.  You want to lump everyone together.  You can’t compare our rigfht leaning voters to the ones in the States.  Surely you know better.  But then again as pointed out over and over again, you’ll do anything to try to make a point.  If you have to be so underhanded constantly, you’re displaying the weakness of your stance.

I have no idea what that means.

I suppose if I’m going to lambaste you, at least I should tell you which blog I’m referring to, Mr. Little.
I’m referring the one that includes the quote, ‘What would Jesus do?‘.  The US right-wing and the Canadian right-wing cannot be compared.  Also, quite frankly, I don’t think it’s appropriate to use anyone’s religion in a sarcastic manner.  A former teacher should be setting an example.

I am not a Christian although I was raised as one by my family. Nevertheless, it is going to be very awkward for 45 Million Christians in the USA to deal with the fact that their church opposes choice, and testing in education. Much bigger deal than Diane Ravitch I would say.

You’ve said that.  This is Canada.
Regarding your sarcastic remark about Christianity, your upbringing has nothing to do with this.  You shouldn’t be acting this way.

Funny how tht works, if something is happening in the USA like, oh I don’t know KIPP for example it is fine to talk about that but if something from the USA supports the progressive argument we get the “this is Canada” argument. Hmmmmm.

Doug, since it might make some people who prefer choice, choose public schools - how do you feel about teaching religion in our public schools?  I mean, since you’re so suddenly open to it.

Here is a quote about how it could be implemented:

“Those holding fast to traditional values demanded the preservation of denominational religious instruction, whereas more radical elements felt that religious instruction should be eliminated altogether. The compromise resulted in the concept instruction in one’s own religion, which strives to guarantee the rights of minorities and to ensure that the child receives an education in accordance with their family’s convictions. Non-religious pupils study a subject called Life Perspective Studies, which includes ethics, worldview studies and comparative religion.“

Well, Mr. Little, with reference to your last blog, if you can’t figure out the difference, that’s just too bad. 
KIPP sounds like an excellent school system and I hope something like this will eventually happen here.  I have no doubt that it will.  I think that the union has peaked and it will see its own decline, and I’ll say it again—for the children’s sake and taxpayers who are forced to pay billions for a lousy system, the sooner the better.

I actually favour 2 kinds of religious classes in school. The first would be an objective “comparative religion” course. The second would be a period per week where numbers warrant (hard to have an Islamic class in Timmins) of religious instruction. Non believers would need to be excused or accomodated. It is full of problems but they could be overcome. Not bad for an antitheist eh.

It is hardly “the union” that keeps these schools out. The gov’t even if it wanted to introduce KIPP is totally afraid of hostile public opinion not any union. These ideas are not popular.

Well Doug, I must admit, you surprise me.  I would wonder what it would take to implement.  Also, wonder if there might be any research into what impact it might have on student behaviour.

Off Topic:  Note to Moderators.  Is there any way to have these threads posted in reverse chronological order?  It really would make it much easier to find the latest post and respond to it. Just a thought.  Thanks for providing these forums for discussion.

“Woe betide those who enact unjust laws and draft oppressive edicts, depriving the poor of justice, robbing the weakest of my people of their rights, plundering the widow and despoiling the fatherless. What will you do when called to account?“  —Isaiah 10:1-3” 

The above quote from the National Council of Churches USA, under the Justice and Advocacy Commission.
http://www.ncccusa.org/publicwitness/

Doug, they are not against choice, charter schools but are against the education policies that creates inequities across the board. They seek change by working within the system. In this case, as with other societal issues, “The National Council of Churches responds to a range of issues under discussion in the public arena by expressing the moral and spiritual concerns of its member communions, either in statements originating with the Council or by signing on to statements produced collaboratively with partner organizations. “

They believe the American’s education direction is the wrong direction, because it will do harm to the moral and spiritual fabric of children. They are concern with the children who are left behind, in the public schools, The majority of children attend public school, but the majority are not getting their needs met. At the same time, they believe the public education system is the best vehicle for doing so, but it is the inequities and faults of the public education system that needs to be corrected. They believe funding should be directed at the public education system, and not at charter schools, because charter schools developed because the public education system is no longer serving the needs of the children and their parents.

It is within the inequities of the public education system, that must be addressed. As Bev has stated, “Your prejudices are showing, Mr. Little.  You want to lump everyone together.  You can’t compare our rigfht leaning voters to the ones in the States.  Surely you know better.  But then again as pointed out over and over again, you’ll do anything to try to make a point.  If you have to be so underhanded constantly, you’re displaying the weakness of your stance.“

Doug, you lumped everyone together as for or against, without ever considering the reasons why or in the National Council of Churches, the reasons underlying their stance. Your world is black and white, rigid, and devoid of seeing the world, comprised of individuals. In your world, humans are composed of groups, criteria imposed on them, and rights are privileges, to be handed out to individuals providing they meet the criteria.

Have you even read the letter? It is as clear as a bell that the churches are critical of Obama for using charters and testing to “reform” American education. This is not a fringe group. Take a look at the churches involved and their size. 45 million congregation in a nation of what 270 million.

Doug, I have read the letter, which moved me to go on their site, and explore the reasons why. It is obvious that you have no deep understanding of the Christian viewpoint, and in the same way having no deep understanding of learning difficulties, and why reading instruction based on science is critical for these children.  If you had gone onto the site, you would have seen a further explanation of the letter, and the reasons stated from a Christian viewpoint.

Mr. Little, after your interpretation of other sites, I’ll stick with Nancy.
btw, 45 million is only a little over 15% of the US population.  Perhaps not fringe, but certainly lightweight.
Also—especially after Mr. Ng’s blog on how KIPP teachers and students are proud of their accomplishments, and swap ideas on the best teaching methods—it sounds like a marvelous school system, and exact contrast to the lack of flexibility here, the burned out, discouraged teachers, and illiterate, miserable children.  Having my children enrolled in competative, sometimes business run schools in Tokyo and Singapore (which were excellent) and enrolling them here in Ontario, I’ve seen both first-hand.  Nothing like competition and a staff who are expected to do their job.

Off Topic:  Note to Moderators.  Is there any way to have these threads posted in reverse chronological order?  It really would make it much easier to find the latest post and respond to it. Just a thought.

Wayne’s suggestion addresses a very real problem, but I think reverse chronological order creates other problems, notably for new readers, either of the blog or the thread. If the posts were in reverse order, and occupied several pages, it would be a challenging matter for people to read them, much less respond to them.  More tellingly, no sucessful blogs I’ve ever seen handle comments in ths way.

What would work better? Placing a frame for “recent comments” with clickable links in the left sidebar would be very helpful. These contain the name of the commenter and the topic of the post commented on, and can be clicked and take the reader directly there, without scrolling through pages.

A picture is worth 1000 words, so see how it works here:

http://www.joannejacobs.com/
Note recent comments at the top left, and right below it, a list of recent posts by title. This makes scrolling down the page unnecessary and is a feature of almost all the top blogs.

http://kitchentablemath.blogspot.com/
Recent comments right at the top. Whenever this feature is temporarily down, there are howls of protest, so many readers find it essential.

Another nice feature, farther down the page on the left, is a list of topics (called “labels”) which the reader can click on to bring up all posts on the desired topic, such as “achievement gap,“  “outsourcing to parents” (great topic).

Also, most blogs’ comments display all on one page, no matter how many there are.  It’s one continuous scrolling page, no need to click on 2,3,4.  Check with your web designer and see what can be done.  The current format discourages new readers from commenting on older posts, because no one will see their comment; the “recent comments” feature on successful blogs frequently re-ignites a debate from a year or two previously, when someone adds to the discussion.

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/24_04/24_04_finland.shtml

The secret to a world beating education system. Click above.

Interesting what the article leaves out. Finnish kids start school with wide gaps between the more and less able, but with a lot of phonological skills development, and teaching reading with synthetic phonics, the gap between the students shrinks considerably in the primary years. This sets the stage for much more engaging and student-directed learning.

I say sure, let’s copy Finland!! Hardly any reading-disabled students!

With all due respect, TDSBNW, learning to read Finnish is very easy—unlike English, the phonetic sounds are constant.  My father taught me, and I could read very well, although I didn’t understand much of what I was reading

Yes, Finnish is a very regular orthography. But if they taught Finnish by “cueing systems” and “Guided Guessing” (like we teach English reading)  they would have significant reading disabilities.

There are other fairly regular languages where the sound-symbol correspondences are consistent, but when non-phonetic teaching practices are put in place, reading disabilities skyrocket.

Reading difficulties track with poverty. When you almost eliminate poverty as the social-democratic Finns have done, poof, reading problems almost gone.

Here’s another example of how the Catholic system is becoming more popular among families. According to this article the ELP is shaping up to go over better in Catholic schools in Toronto than it is in that other board.

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/moira_macdonald/2010/06/25/14521241.html

Another feather for the Catholic cap.

Finnish is very easy to read.  My father taught me how to pronounce the letters of the Finnish alphabet, and right away I could read fluently (but understanding only a few words).  Learning to read in English is difficult, and as TDSBNW has pointed out, this is why it stands to reason phonics must be taught to every student learning to read in English.

My father was a poor immigrant.  He never had a pair of shoes that fit him till he joined the army.  He spoke Finn at home and in his neighbourhood with his gang of friends.  He said that going to and from school was like entering and leaving entirely different worlds (the Finn culture vs the old wasp culture).  At school, my father said that he had the greatest respect for his teachers, and of course, he and the other Finnish children learned English and learned to read.  (Finnish is not an Indo-Eurpean language btw, so the teachers had their work cut out for them!)  Luckily for all of them, whole language hadn’t been invented.  By the time he was in his 40’s he had read every book in our small library, and had to go downtown to the larger library.  This is all thanks to the old teaching methods.  My father and his friends lived in poverty throughout much of their childhood, but he was taught by experts using excellent teaching methods.
Ditto for my husband—Finnish, immigrant, very poor, and learned English at the age of six when he entered grade one.  He did very well on his departmentals, won a scholarship, and went on to be a chemist doing research—fluent in three languages as well. 
Education is a priceless gift, which our children today are not getting thanks to our politicians, the teachers’ unions, and of course the burearcrats.  I still find it so hard to fathom that they would rob children of such a precious gift for their own selfish gains.

hmmm.  My long tirade was in reference to Mr. Little’s comments about poverty killing all a child’s chances of ever succeeding academically. 
I didn’t know Mr. Sheep’s blog would get in before mine. 

Doug, “Reading difficulties track with poverty”, I highly doubt it. Learning to read, depends on the language that one is learning to read. English is well known to be the most difficult language, to learn to read.  Another reason, why reading science should be in the schools.

Mr Sheep those are largely catholic families switching catholic schools to take advantage of the very popular all day kindergarten.

If non-catholic families switch, according to Moira, it is because the catholics opened an all day K while the local PS did not yet. This will all even out. In other areas it will be the reverse where the PS opens all day K and the atholic school does not.

You really ought to have a greater understanding of the system before you opine.

P-L-E-A-S-E Nancy, reading difficulties are overwhelmingly congruent with SES. The EQAO results continue to show this year after year as do the standadized testing results across the world.

The facinating thing for me is that it is “traditional” education groups that demand testing but the testing itself makes the case that a great deal more money needs to be spent on education and within that spending there needs to be a shift to the poor schools and poor kids. This is the core of the liberal education message.

Ironic.

California keeps better stats on reading disabilities than most jurisdictions. A recent data point was that 40% of students with reading disabilities were from above-average SES families with two university-educated parents.

Westchester County, NY is one of the highest SES areas in the U.S. Public school per-pupil spending averages around $30 000 U.S. (as much as most elite private schools). Yet, 30% of pupils have reading disabilities that require intervention in grades 3-6. This despite parental access to tutors (who charge on average more than $100/hr).

Westchester County schools use Fountas and Pinnell reading instructional strategies and materials. No empirical evidence anywhere supports this approach but it is very popular and is also widely used in Ontario public schools, and is the prescribed approach of the Ontario Ministry of Education.

Bev, nobody has ever made the case that some individuals cannot make their way out of poverty though education. The point is that it is too difficult for most. Anecdotal stories of one person do not prove a thing.

None of this contradicts the fact that EQAO reading data and that of almost every other jurisiction points to a very high almost total connection between poverty and poor reading results. No matter what reading system you use the rich do better than the poor everywhere.

Mr. Little, they all could read, and all went on to productive lives—one becoming a concert pianist; others professional musicians; and my husband a research chemist. 
Nowadays, I’m sorry to say, that we don’t have a 100% success rate.
I stand by what I say, and please, Mr. Little, don’t try and use your twisted ‘research facts’ against real-life situations

“SES has a systematic effect on reading skills, after controlling for PA. However, the nature of this effect changes, depending on both the reading measure and the PA range examined. SES disparities in decoding are greatest at lower PA levels, whereas SES disparities in single word reading and passage comprehension are consistent across all PA levels. Interventions for poor readers must therefore target both the development of phonological skill and the elimination of key discrepancies in environmental advantage. Attempts to identify the cognitive and experiential factors driving development must likewise acknowledge the potentially complex, synergizing relations between these factors.“

The above, is a study of, “The two most thoroughly examined are socioeconomic status (SES) and phonological awareness (PA). Although these factors are often investigated individually, they are rarely considered together.“
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2752890/

At the end of the day Doug, the reading difficulties must be address to developed the necessary phonological skills needed to be able to read. Whole language does not cut it, and as TDSBNW points out that in well-to-do districts, reading difficulties are present in more or less the same numbers in districts that are not as well off.

Yes, I agree with the above.  And if educators would only allow phonics to be taught none of this pseudo-science research nonsense would be necessary.

Nonsense. SES is the critcal factor separating successful schools and students from less successful schools and students. Of course reading problems need to addressed regardless.

Furthermore Doug, in Canada the education systems, do not published a breakdown of the number of students experiencing reading difficulties, or the number of students at any level, that are receiving remedial reading help, and if it is targeted at the phonological weaknesses. Studies need to be conducted here in Canada, and I bet dollar to donuts, that at the end of the day, it is the reading curriculum causing all the problems.

Of course it is, Nancy!
You work so hard!  Don’t miss the forest for the trees!  Phonics will make anyone short of a very, very low IQ a reader—even in English, one of the hardest languages to read.

We have all the test scores. I am not looking at reading difficulties in the SE SUN, JUN 27, 2010 sense of the word although this is skewed to the poor as well but in the overall scores.

Rich equals good scores overall

Middle equals middle scores overall

Poor equals weak scores overall therefore reading is class based.

Wrong, Mr. Little.  Phonics makes readers.  Whole language means that the wealthier ends of town can afford tutors; middle = some can afford turors; poor = fewer can.  Again, you’re being deliberately obtuse, because it suits your precious union agenda as opposed to what’s best for our children.

I’m sure you believe that Bev. We had Phonics based systems in the 40s and 50s. Data was worse then. I learned to read with see say Dick and Jane with a tiny touch of Phonics.

Then you had a bad teacher.

Doug Little is not advancing a “union agenda” when he parades his near-total ignorance of reading instruction and research into effective teaching. Teachers’ unions in Ontario do not have ideological positions on specific curricula or pedagogy.

So who does? Not the unions, but the Ministry of Education. That’s where the proponents of fads, disproven theories and pseudo-science reign supreme. Unfortunately, they have the power to enforce their practices on boards, schools and teachers.

If you want to change teaching practices in Ontario, it’s the MOE that you need to target, not teachers, or unions.

In point of fact, Doug’s repeated Big Lie (a la Goebbels) that only SES matters actually undermines the need for more teachers, or higher education spending.  If the poor aren’t going to learn anyway, why waste money? Put them in classes of 75, they will do just as well until that Utopian day comes when the poor we no longer have with us.

Also, while a close examination of the data (not just averages, but specifics) shows that SES is not determinative, the results do show other correlations that are much stronger than SES correlations with achievement. Doug Little is not going to go anywhere near those data (and neither am I). These correlations are between race and academic achievement. They are much stronger than the SES correlation, and often override it. 

There is so much controversy in this area that it is not very useful to discuss it right now. Good instruction is certainly an indisputable first step. I’ll leave it at that.

Phonics will make anyone short of a very, very low IQ a reader—even in English, one of the hardest languages to read.

Not quite. Actually, learning decoding skills is not related to IQ—even very low IQ children can often learn to do it (and spell, also). What teaching systematic synthetic phonics at an early stage (as they do in Finland, and in some locales in the English-speaking world) does is level the playing field so that every child has a chance to build on that basic ability to lift print from the page and learn from it.

After children can decode easily, there are many other skills to learn to become a good reader. But, if the child can NOT read the words, those higher skills are inaccessible to him or her. In other words, good phonetic decoding is necessary, but not sufficient. If all children can do this proficiently, teachers can then expose them to rich literature, creative writing, deep thinking, and so on—impossible if the kid cannot read, which is all too common in the Fountas and Pinnell world.

Doug, what do you mean by successful schools?
I have a feeling, a successful school in your eyes, means the students are well indoctrinated and accept the social engineering without question.

I take it you agree with Dewey, “You can’t make socialists out of individualists. Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent.”

It is why you have no concern in reading, writing and numeracy. These are the very things, that creates people who can think for themselves, and are able to question the social engineering taking place in our schools. “He saw the destruction of a child’s individualistic traits as the primary goal of education. Once this was accomplished the youngster would conform or adjust to whatever society in which he found himself. Ability to “get along with the group” became the prime measuring stick of a child’s educational “progress.“ 20Dewey summarized his theories, saying: Education, therefore, is a process for living and not a preparation for future living. 21”

http://www.mombu.com/politics/politics/t-disciples-of-john-dewey-create-a-new-social-order-socialism-3010722.html

In your mind, Doug, SES factors are the only factors, that impacts learning. One can never question the reading curriculum, the teaching methods or the wisdom of the education policies, because that might lead to children thinking for themselves, and break the cardinal rule of Dewey.
“You can’t make socialists out of individualists. Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society which is coming, where everyone is interdependent.”

Mr. Little himself has said that the union is heavily involved in many parts of our educational system, including influencing how and what is taught.  From this I’ve deduced tht the union is interested in quashing phonics because there would be more LD children as a result, therefore more teachers/larger union membership.
This idea that teaching reading and everything involved with it is a complex problem would not be so if only the basics were taught properly; however making it appear complicated keeps many so-called experts on the payroll…

Yes, TD, but again that’s common sense.  Of course grammar has to follow.  If you can’t sing the melody (which grammar gives) you’re not going to be able to make any sense of what you’ve just read.  again, my father taught me the alphabet in Finnish and I read fluently—very easy, but understood practically nothing, so along with grammar, one needs vocabulary

Exactly. The unions see pedagogy and curriculum as a “management right”. They offer their opinion sometimes but never more than that. My opinion is the dominant one in education. The one Jo-anne calls the status quo opinion. The one that has us in 2nd place world wide and very close to 1st. Ya that one.

I have heard some wild ones Nancy but that takes the cake.

Successful schools um school with high reading scores.

Oh no, Doug!  You’re orchestrating this mess?!

Doug it is not wild as you seem to think. Your political leanings show, you do not want children to grow into independent thinking adults, based on your antiqued and often biased viewpoints of children and their learning difficulties. I remember one post a while back, where you state, all LD kids are in the middle income groups and higher, and all reading difficulties in the low income groups are SES factors. So tell me Doug, are the brains of the children different?  In your mind, are the children a different sort of subsets of different humans?  Is there a difference between low-income children and their counterparts, that somehow genetics and other environmental factors do not impact the low-income kids? 

Here is a video, where most would be amazed at what is happening in the medical world, and the impact it will have down the road in education practices. But Doug, would have us believe that it would only impact the middle income and higher groups, and the low-income would make no difference, except the SES factors.

http://www.ted.com/talks/aditi_shankardass_a_second_opinion_on_learning_disorders.html

It is absolutely amazing.

TDSBSW - Bev’s correct Doug has told the folks here that the unions DO have a huge hand in what and how is taught. 

Are you saying he’s wrong?

If he is are teachers so beaten down by administrations as to not speak up to the government to change something that influences them as negatively as this?

Seems to me individual teachers have opposed every government going over the past 50 years what’s stopping the unions from do so re: teaching methods and pedagogy?

Also, is it not true that elected governments have no hand in the moving of the flavours of the month fads?
That in fact it’s those seconded principals and board administration and bureaucrats who call the shots?

Where did they get their training and expertise?

More likely than not in a classroom and the vicious cycle continues.

I believe that it’s the teacher unions tenticles wind into every facet of public education….every one.

If individual teachers see that their unions aren’t speaking up to the MOE in issues like this then I’d say that the rank and file need to do something about that.
There are more of you than there are union exec. no?

How about giving educators more choice of representation?

From this I’ve deduced that the union is interested in quashing phonics because there would be more LD children as a result, therefore more teachers/larger union membership

Sorry, that’s not the case. Not in Ontario, anyway. Having a bunch of non-readers in the class vastly increases teacher workload. No union of elementary teachers that took the position you suggest would survive an election.

Besides, LD kids don’t generate more teachers. It’s the other way around. Ministry funding dictates how many LD kids will be identified.  Special Education is funded on a per-capita basis, not on a needs basis, so neither teachers nor boards have any incentive to identify Sp Ed. kids. They will not get more resources for them.

if only the basics were taught properly; however making it appear complicated keeps many so-called experts on the payroll

There are few to no “experts” on the payroll at the elementary level. Those Ministry and Literacy Secretariat “experts,“ however, cost big bucks but are not there to fix problems of “LD” kids, they are to teach “higher level thinking.“ Whether kids can decode or not is neither here nor there.

Same with math. Even if kids can’t count to ten on their fingers in Grade 5, they are supposed to do sophisticated real-world “problem solving” and “explain their thinking.“ Those MOE “experts” come around to the classrooms and reprimand teachers for teaching math facts or the “basics” because these are “low level skills,“ as if that were a venereal disease.

Getting the right answer doesn’t matter, and math facts and algorithms are not in the curriculum.

None of this nonsense came from unions, the MOE can take all the credit.

Are you saying he’s wrong?
Yes.
Certainly wrong re elementary.

Why be surprised? He’s wrong about many other things.

TD, I won’t dispute what you’ve stated, however, I’m not totally convinced either.  We have far more specialists nowadays than there ever were in my day…
Therefore to me, it’s to some people’s advantage to generate lousy curricula. 
Also, the time and effort put into flatting out the eqao tests—no there they’ve done well!  I know this is an arms length branch of education but there appears to be a common purpose that every facet of education is working toward—keep as many people employed as possible and don’t let the public know what’s really going on.  It brings back memories of my working days when some employees would spend all of their time covering for what they hadn’t done, or had done poorly, rather than just do the task at hand.

Parents demand SE programs. Programs DO generate jobs.

Yes, bad curricula and teaching methods generate many so-called LD children.  Parents want help for their children = more jobs.
The bottom line, too many parents buy into the baloney handed out by educrats.  this is one of the reasons this blog is here in the first place, to get the facts out to people and allow debate regarding education issues.

Parents demand SE programs. Programs DO generate jobs.

You are back in the early 2000’s where funding is concerned.  Also where provision of “programs” is concerned. Things have changed radically and you don’t have a clue.

Boards get X amount of dollars for Sp. Ed. on a per-pupil basis (capitation). They don’t get more if they have more SE kids. They use some of the funds they get for Sp. Ed. to provide Sp. Ed. programs.  Having MORE LD, or MID or whatever kids, will *not* get them more funding, more programs, or more staff.

Anyway, the Ministry is reducing Sp. Ed. services as much as possible. I have the memo from Ben Levin.

More Sp. Ed. kids doesn’t translate into more jobs. Also, many parents DON’T want Sp. Ed. programs—this is also a big shift from the past. Even if their kid has a serious disablity, they want that kid in the regular class, not in Sp. Ed. The board would have to take them to court to force the issue, and they rarely do that.

There are more jobs for child and youth workers trained to work for children with autism. This is funded not out of the board’s sp. ed. funding, but directly by the Ministry. These are hourly employees, usually on a 1-year contract.

OK I stand corrected, TD.  I can’t figure out why on earth these bureaucrats wouldn’t care enough about their jobs to do the right thing.  What a feckless bunch in individuals

None of this nonsense came from unions, the MOE can take all the credit.

I feel the same way-

It has to be exposed!Somehow we need a big story to tell parents…and Dalton needs to be exposed too.I`ve warned several organizations that Ben Levin is such bad news!

This whole thing is ridiculous!

It`s like denying that Penicillin cures Pneumonia 90% of the time.

And Doug,I warn you,don`t come near this as I read this blog-children and their parents matter significantly-you are not an issue and your discussions with Mr Sheep-
Give us all a break-you`re pathetic!

Name calling Jo-anne? Perhaps you want to reconsider and control your emotions.

Yes this has nothing to do with the unions and perhaps the tiny part that does, OSSTF has been pushing back hard “against” credit light and when I was there I was part of this effort. Ben Levin was furious about the Jon Cowans article told me so. He demanded space in the OSSTF magazine to write a responce piece. We allowed him a letter only. A long one. We don’t much like the MOE either. Our perspective is different. We find they keep demanding higher test scores with little on the input side. They are demanding that teachers raise marks to pass more people. We disagree with this and push back.

We have told them repeatedly that you can blow hot air on the thermometer to make it go up but it is phoney and unsustainable.

Too bad you hate unions. There are actually SOME issues in common.

BTW our polls tell us the more people talk about education the higher Dalton goes. His education policies are much more popular than he or the Liberals. An election fought on education policy means dalton wins easily.

Somebody will say “not in my part of the province” that does not matter only 30 seats actully matter.

yep, TDSBSW,  Mr. Little is wrong about many things.  You’re right about that.

BS is BS and horsefeathers are horsefeathers.

I give Mr. Little a solid “C” for attendance but a failing grade in getting along with others and making judgement calls on folks gathered here because they have the welfare of students in mind.

Well Doug, you should feel right at home with Ben Levin on your side. Many of Ben Levin’s statements are in lock-step with your own. But I do understand why, since he does considered unions in getting in the way of improving education in Ontario and the rest of the world. But you are not alone, there is parents that often do not follow the stated goals, or are unwilling to do so. As I read many different articles this morning written by Ben Levin, his intent is changing the education systems of not only Ontario, but the rest of the world, by applying organization theory in public education.  Organization theory as stated: “Organizational studies, organizational behaviour, and organizational theory is the systematic study and careful application of knowledge about how people - as individuals and as groups - act within organizations.“
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organizational_studies

I needed to understand where Ben Levin comes from, to understand his indifference to parents, the individual teachers , the children in the context that in his writings, he is committed to change by using organization theory models as the over riding theme to developed policies in education. When groups or individuals work actively against the the new measures, they are considered distractions. They are to be ignored for the most part, until they are perceived as being listen to by the general population.

This led me to researched on how Ben Levin feels about reading, and how one learns how to read. Does he considered science of reading important, and for that matter the actual science advancements taking place. Or is he more intent on behavioural applications?  I concluded, it is behavioural applications, where science takes a back seat.

http://www.research.utoronto.ca/behind_the_headlines/reading-writing-and-math-are-kids-making-progress/

The above link is an interview with Ben Levin.
Reading, writing and math: Are Kids Making Progress?

“What are examples of methods that can improve literacy?

Well, one thing we’ve learned is to increase and improve the exposure to lots of different literacy activities.  Of course, young students need to be taught letters and sounds – what we call “phonics” – but they need much more than that.  They also need to be read to, to have a lot of experience with print of different kinds, to read print that they are interested in and that they find motivating.  That’s what is called a balanced literacy program.

What about math?  It seems to be such a challenge to certain students.

The key issue in math is teacher skill and comfort level.  The problem is that many primary teachers did not like math.  So they don’t necessarily feel the same comfort and competence in teaching it.  So a lot of work to improve elementary school math instruction is focused on helping teachers develop their own understanding of the subject and learn special techniques for teaching kids math.  We don’t know as much about the effective teaching of math, as there hasn’t been as much research as there has been with language.“

Now about parents.
“What about the involvement of parents at home in their children’s education?  Does that help a child to do well at school and in the EQAO results?

Yes, parent involvement is vital.  And again this is an area where we’ve learned a lot more about what constitutes appropriate parent involvement.  We don’t need parents to do the work of teachers.  What’s important is whether parents actually expect their kids to do well and work hard and whether kids get exposure to the kinds of things that help, like a lot of exposure to print.  Do parents read to their kids, are there books around the house, is there a lot of conversation in the house about what kids are doing and thinking so that they get used to formulating ideas and defending their opinions?  All of these activities are essential to improving literacy.“

What drew my ire, “And again this is an area where we’ve learned a lot more about what constitutes appropriate parent involvement.  We don’t need parents to do the work of teachers.  What’s important is whether parents actually expect their kids to do well and work hard and whether kids get exposure to the kinds of things that help, like a lot of exposure to print.“

Joanne is right, “ has to be exposed!Somehow we need a big story to tell parents…and Dalton needs to be exposed too.I`ve warned several organizations that Ben Levin is such bad news!

This whole thing is ridiculous!

Ben Levin’s web page.
http://home.oise.utoronto.ca/~blevin/index.htm

I just noticed this on page 3:

Bev, nobody has ever made the case that some individuals cannot make their way out of poverty though education. The point is that it is too difficult for most. Anecdotal stories of one person do not prove a thing.

Posted by Bev on 06/27 at 07:38 AM

I doubt this is Bev talking to herself. Doug posted as “Doretta” on a previous occasion. This has a distinctly Doug-like look to it.

Identity crisis? Freudian slip?

“I just noticed this on page 3:“

This could be a function of this website.

Note that when writing a comment, the field “Name” comes up first.  This Name is, of course, meant to be the name of the poster.

If you’re writing a post directly to someone, it’s possible that in the heat of the moment, you inadvertently put the name of the person you’re addressing into the “Name” field, rather than your own.  The result is a post that appears to come from the person you’re actually addressing.

I almost did this to Doug once.  The results would have been quite misleading but also quite entertaining! 

Dave,

That is exactly what had happened.  It has been corrected and the comment is correctly attributed to Doug not Bev.

Sorry My bad.

Hey Guys, that’s nothing.

We once had a VP that was prone to make mistakes.  He once assigned a teacher to supply for his own class that he was to be absent for!

We once had a VP that was prone to make mistakes.  He once assigned a teacher to supply for his own class that he was to be absent for!

Hey, I can top that one. We had a VP who paged himself over the intercom: “Will Mr. {very unusual name—could only have been himself he was referring to} please come to the office.“

It was an open-area school, so some of us on the second floor looked at each other with mystified expressions, like, say what???

We wondered if he saw himself, or his doppelganger, come to the office…...

Sounds like your VP’s had more in their lunch thermoses than just coffee.

Ours was a teetotaler. Maybe he was high on life.

If KIPP schools are the choice of some and works for them then all the power to them.

Similarly I see all kinds of room in Ontario for those corporations who wish to educate students in their image to get the skills needed to boost their rank and file.

The province and industry in this province is thirsting for just one corporation to start the ball rolling. It would be a source of civic duty to help pick up the slack in teaching that is currently eluding way too many within the public system.

Kudos for teachers like TDSBSW and Wayne confident in their programs and their abilities.

Chuck people should be free to attend KIPP schools. KIPP schools should not get public money for a school that excludes SE kids, ELL, kids and pushes out all of its low achieving kids and misbehaving kids and sends them back to the public system. After all of that, they attempt to say they are better than local schools. KIPP kids go to school 50% more time paid for by outside corporations and foundations. This is essentially a private school getting public support.

Still after all of this KIPP cannot compete with higher income schools reenforcing the Iron Law of SES.

Ever wonder why no corporation comes forward here Chuck? Check the letter on another thread from the Imperial Oil exec that lauds Canada’s fantastic public education system. I’ll try to find it for you.

By that same logic, some public alternative schools shouldn’t get funded either.

exactly right Doretta.

It’s common sense for future employers in this province.

Public schools are already inviting corporations to fund gyms, and computer labs.

Sorry, but Ontario’s ripe for something tailored to what’s going to shape students for the global economy rather than be blinded to the fate of what a public school diploma really means these days.

The Imperial Oil exec. doesn’t trump our system as much as he asks questions of it. I agree with Nancy.

Corporations alternative is to just pull out of Ontario all together.  Why should they do our job?  There are very well-educated people in other countries.
I’ve seen quite a few disgruntled execs from foreign-owned companies.  There would have to be a vested intereste to motivate them, and probably our curent politicians wouldn’t be agreeable because the teachers’ unions woulnd’t like it.

But Bev, corporations locate in Ontario and in Canada for the very reason of the highly educated and trained workforce. If they need cheap labour they go to Mexico or China.

Research seems to say charters are useless.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/search?updated-min=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated;-max=2011-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max;-results=21

The DC study is very narrowly define as to how the charter schools were selected. Another problem is comparing the lottery winners to the lottery losers.

However end result is 75 % of the lottery winners, achieved the standard reading score or better, compared to the lottery losers who were back in the public school, and only 54 % achieved the standard reading score or better. A 21 % difference.

I would say this is significant, and charter schools are doing a better job in reaching more students, and raising their achievement rates.

Another poorly performing school goes the charter way.
  “School Superintendent Carol R. Johnson will tap a charter school management organization to run one of the district’s low-achieving middle schools, a first for the state, under a plan she will present tonight to the Boston School Committee.

  “Johnson has not decided which middle school would be overseen by Unlocking Potential Inc., a new Boston nonprofit management organization founded by a former charter school principal.

  “A key part of the proposal calls for converting the middle school into an in-district charter school, which would enable the management organization to operate under greater freedom from the teacher union’s contract as it overhauls programs, dismisses teachers, and makes other changes.“

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/06/30/boston_takes_charter_school_nonprofit_as_a_partner/

Well, yah, it would only make sense to get away from the teachers’ union.

The anti-union impulse in society is really an anti-democratic impulse. It is particularly odious when applied to a group that wants public money. The right to a union is a human right. The UN and our own Supreme Court have taken this side.

The impulse says we don’t care what our employees think we intend to run a dictatorship. Yes yes KIPP has meetings to talk things out but at the end of the day the boss is the boss. This is why KIPP and other charters are unionizing at a good clip and will soon find it difficult to run their employees around the clock. The high turn over rate already speaks volumes about an unsustainable model but time will tell.

‘Yes yes KIPP has meetings to talk things out but at the end of the day the boos is the boss.
That’s the way the real world works.  Many public sector union employees are very out of touch with this reality.

I guess that is why their huge turn over every year persists and the ones who want to stay want aa union.

This is factually incorrect. KIPP teacher turnover is only slightly higher than that of other high-poverty, high-minority urban schools in the U.S.

Also, efforts to unionize have been isolated instances. They are required by law in Baltomire to belong to the teachers’ union, whether they want to or not. AFT (the more instruction-friendly US teachers’ union) worked out a deal so that the Baltimore KIPP school could operate through 2011, but they will have to get laws changed in Maryland to permit their continuance.

KIPP teachers are paid more for their extra time, Some teachers go there for only a year or two, some stay quite a few years. NONE are forced to go there, so reports of how angry and dissatisfied they are are, like Mark Twain said of reports of his death, “greatly exaggerated.“

Naturally, KIPP schools are not immune from the dangers of bad management. A school level administrator who is a complete <bleep> is poisonous to the work environment and to student learning. Fortunately for KIPP, they seem to have fewer of those than we have in the public system. At least they have a way to deal with them—in Ontario public schools, we do not, unless the individual is convicted of a criminal offense.

http://www.schoolsmatter.info/search?updated-min=2010-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&updated;-max=2011-01-01T00:00:00-05:00&max;-results=21

More money for administration, less for SE, (almost zero in most charters)

hmmmmmhttp://www.educationnews.org/ed_reports/edu_assoc_articles/93751.html

Try again with this link.

http://www.educationnews.org/ed_reports/edu_assoc_articles/93751.html

The article is not news. There is funding differences.
“ A new study released today finds that charter schools typically get less funding than the traditional public schools with which they compete. But it also finds that those traditional public schools have additional obligations, accounting for much or all of those funding differences.“

The vast majority of children who have been identified, are the mild to moderate LD kids. Where ever one goes, 80 % of SE children are mild to moderate problems in language.All can be corrected with the use of good reading programs, along with quality instruction that works for them. The trouble with public education systems,  administration is heavy, and fewer dollars will reach the students to correct the language difficulties. In charter schools, more dollars are directed at instruction materials, resources directed at the students, and far less on the high-price experts found in the upper administration.

It is how money is spent. The priorities of a given education system. Charter schools are force to make good choices, to get the biggest bang for their dollars. Public education systems, have no incentives, since they do not have the same accountability as the folks in the Charter schools. To stay open, they need results. Public schools only close in Canada, under declining enrollment or the building itself is falling apart. 

Coming from P4E, a parent writes, “So I think that the funding policy of schools needs to be addressed if the Ministry is sincere in promoting the tenets of this strategy. I would like to see addressed the targeted wait time for students to obtain an individual educational needs assessment by a qualified education psychiatrist? I would like to know what measures will be taken to inform parents of the availability of these resources? Lastly, I would like to see the creation of an independent advocate for parents that can support parents’ requests for these resources, or to address their concerns of discrimination, when schools and boards fail to live up to the responsibilities set in the Equity and Inclusion Strategy. Too often, it seems, a catch-22 scenario plays out between boards, schools, parents, and the Ministry of Education when the Ministry passes policies down to boards but then waives responsibility for the implementation of those policies by the boards based on the status of a board’s legal, corporate autonomy while the boards waive responsibility based on a lack of resources and their legal obligation to operate within their budget. To avoid this type of scenario, I would like to see this Strategy included in the Education Act in order to protect students’ rights and guarantee their equitable access to the resources they require to succeed in our public education system.“

http://schools-at-the-centre.ning.com/forum/topics/an-inclusive-education-system

Doug, do you see how accountability is avoided, by the structure of the system?  Equity and Inclusion is another policy doom to fail.

Charter schools are simply not any better than public schools.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/29/study-finds-little-edge-charter-school-students/

Full Study, Charters are a waste of time, period.

http://ies.ed.gov/ncee/pubs/20104029/pdf/20104029.pdf

Charters are a waste of time, period

That’s not what the study actually reported. Details are important.

The study found that there were significant positive effects on mathematics achievement for poor kids.  Ont the other hand, non-poor kids did worse (negative effects).

This particular study focused only on middle schools, and found no significant differences in reading achievement. However, this is no surprise—by middle school, low-performing readers are as much as 4-6 years behind their normally-achieving peers and require hundreds of hours of intensive remediation, which no school is able to supply.

The study summarized results of previous studies, including one in 2008 that found positive effects on reading achievement in elementary (but not middle) schools. This is congruent with what we know of the importance of getting reading right in the first place. Charter schools like Arthur Academy and the Charter Day School get nearly 100% of students meeting or exceeding grade level standards in reading, but they start at K.

As Doug has pointed out, many charter schools in the USA, and alternative schools in TDSB, are on the free school/ Summerhill/Deweyesque end of the spectrum and emphasize discovery learning and self-directed “study.“ Generally speaking, academic outcomes in such milieux are below average.  Academics are not the driving force in such schools.  This study, and others, does not disaggregate the data into school instructional foci and academic orientation. That would be a useful construct to pursue in future.

Doug has often maintained that the positive results of charter schools that get positive results are 100% due to longer hours. This study did not support Doug’s contention. It found longer hours made no difference.

A study of a New England district that instituted longer hours in a number of its public schools on an experimental basis found the same thing.  It just might be that what you do with the longer hours is the critical factor.

Given that academic outcomes are not ( in many cases) what draws people to charter schools, or to private schools, the affective measures data were interesting. Parents and students were both much more likely to be satisfied with the school than were the controls who attended the neighbourhood school. Students were more positive in their reported self-perceptions as students, and in evaluating their experience of school, their feelings towards teachers, etc.  These are important in and of themselves, as students in middle school who “turn off” are likely to drop out. If they are engaged and positive about school, they are likelier to learn more and succeed in the long run.

While the achievement data overall were similar for charter and regular schools, the achievement data for poor kids in urban schools were significantly in favour of the charter school kids.

Some other factors that seemed to influence outcomes were school size (smaller=better) and ethnicity (minority students and poor kids were likelier to do better in the charter milieu; white and non-poor kids did worse).

Thank You TDSBNW-What a good posting-it explained a great deal to me.

I want to comment here Doug,that this is an intelligent posting describing and explaining both sides of the situation as we wonder why studies come back the way they do and show charters not doing any better than public schools.

I want to say one more thing about studies-like the studies on female hormone therapy exalting it`s benefits-you have to say-who funded the study and what if any benefits naturally occur if the study is positive or negative -that I have learned is the sad state in our society.Even very prestigious Dr.`s can have an arrangement that is financially positive for them to see the results of a study a particular way-and we have to find those who would never do it.

Many of us are starting to wonder about WWC-If it`s whole language it works???which is not a possibility with the results of the NICHD Study!

When KIPP “works” in poor schools it is due to restricted entry, expulsions, push outs etc. They are famour for this and their student turn over is even more rapid than their teacher turn over.

Across America, charters do not do any better than regular schools. Sure if there are other reasons fine but the promote themselves using academic achievement and it is just a big lie.

Doug is making the same cognitive error as Nancy frequently makes—overgeneralizing from one or two examples to a whole category.

Most KIPP schools have similar turnover to other high-needs urban schools (this runs from 30-50% per year in some areas, including TDSB) which is a consequence of low-income families moving frequently.  They are very reluctant to expel students or “push” them out—they have an almost missionary and religious zeal about “saving” kids. Of course some kids find it a poor fit and leave because they want to. Others leave because their families move. Also, some KIPP schools have much higher turnover than others—remember they are independent of each other and have different local factors to deal with, including (in some instances) bad management.

They do not have restrictive admissions, but it is probably true that they attract more motivated and academically oriented students to begin with, because they are focused on preparing students for college.

Doug needs to join some teacher email loops with KIPP teachers, and read first-person accounts rather than relying on the vituperative screeds of tendentious hacks like Jim Horn and Steven Krashen. I call those guys “Gucci Socialists.“ They weep and wail for the poor, while making megabucks cashing in on their own “solutions” (which actually make things worse) and live in gated rich communities where they will be protected from actually mixing with the filthy rabble they profess to love.

Oh yeah, we can trust their opinions. They haven’t taught any poor kids in decades.And they have a vested interest in preventing real solutions from taking hold.

Meanwhile, the study Doug cited actually demonstrated that poor and minority kids do significantly BETTER in charter schools. Since rich white kids do worse, all we need to do to get charter school rankings up is to prevent middle class or wealthy white kids from going to them

Wow-TDSBNW-Again-I learned so much.

Also,your vocabulary and descriptive strands are in keeping with the severity and societal relevance of the subject we address.I follow you with great interest as I see you are in the trenches and making both pedagogical and political observations.

If only Chris Spence would meet with YOU.

I read the piece in the Globe this week about the Afrocentic school-just wait till the first EQAO tests come out-it will be a disaster!They don`t look at how to teach-ever-any of these schools with poor results!It`s always metacognition and inferencing.
We can thank all the Universities for that though because they`ve ignored the empirical research for 25 years!

Many of us are starting to wonder about WWC-If it`s whole language it works???which is not a possibility with the results of the NICHD Study!

Jo-Anne, the What Works Clearinghouse was originally set up to discover, indeed, “what works.“ Naturally the bureaucrats at the top of the food chain coud not stand for that, so its purpose was quickly subverted.

The WWC now reports on only a tiny percentage of research results that conforms to a restrictive set of criteria re experimental methods. Most of the research on effective curricula (even overwhelming data sets like Project Follow Through) don’t meet their requirements, whatever the outcomes. Thus most effective curricula are not included in the WWC database.

The Afro-centred school is already having severe problems between a “strict” teacher and parents telling him to “lighten up”. As predicted. Schools as a theory are always beautiful. Reality bites.

I read the piece in the Globe this week about the Afrocentic school-just wait till the first EQAO tests come out-it will be a disaster!

They probably won’t have to report them.  Most alternative elementaries have enrolment that is too small for reporting of EQAO results. There need to be more than 15 students in each grade that wrote and submitted the test for the EQAO scores to be published, otherwise there is a risk of identifying individuals.

You can expect that a portion of alternative school parents will be ones who disagree with EQAO and keep their children home, so even if the school has more than 15 grade 3 or 6 students, it is quite likely they will not have enough who participate to have the results published.

If only Chris Spence would meet with YOU.
Hah hah, I’ll try. He came to our school and I was hoping to accost him in the hall but he didn’t come into our wing of the building. He did ask teachers about Guided Reading (I’m sure that will warm the cockles of your heart).

He does seem to be interested in promoting a variety of programs, so if a group of parents and teachers wanted to start a program focused on SBRR or DI or Core Knowledge he would probably be approachable on the topic.