In education, I think the disconnect in terms of value can be found within the stakeholders. The parents will have different values depending on their own traditions, cultural, and experiences, and they may not be the same values as a teachers’ association, the education boards, or the other parts of the education system. Often the system, imposes values (the reasons) dictated to justify the costs of education, to create many jobs and busy work, and in the process somehow have forgotten why a society educates their children.

As I pointed out to John on another board, just keep telling the parents that money has nothing to do with quality and the progressive forces will tell them that of course it does and we will see who they believe.

I suggest we tell the parents how much is available each year for their school as an increase and if they vote that they don’t want the money, we can spend it on the other schools. Problem solved.

We had a strong contingent of conservative trustees when I was on the school board who wanted to close schools. I moved a motion that since a little more than half the trustees did not want to close schools and a little less than half still wanted to close schools that the director bring forward a report outlining which schools counld be closed but they must only be in the following wards where the trustees favour school closings. The other side had to go to get a legal opinion that motions of that type were illegal but my point was made. The hypocracy of the conservative trustees was exposed.

You should have seen the contortions they used to go through because Forest Hill and Rosedale public schools were the richest schools and the smallest schools but the conservatives wanted to close OTHER small schools. Ya right.

“just keep telling parents that money has nothing to do with quality….”

don’t have to Doug, they’re smart enough all by themselves to figure out that more money guarantees nothing at all.

“Forest Hill and Rosedale public schools were the richest schools…...” didn’t you argue with someone several weeks ago that there was nothing “special” about Rosedale?

Try to pay a little closer attention Chuck. I am talking about Rosedale PS (an elementary school) Rosedale HEIGHTS School of the Arts is a secondary school.

I dunno Chuck, I go to these huge People for Education Conferences where parents from 4 systems all across Ontario get together and demand a lot more money be spent on education.

Ask the school trustees you know. In six years on the TBE I had one person phone to complain about the tax rate. I had 20 calls per week asking for more money.

The Americans brought in Prop 13 to control school property tax rates in California. Since then their system has fallen apart.

I don’t care what you do but when you say money has little to do with education quality you will always stay at the margins of the debate, where you are now. There is no interest in privatization of schools in Ontario Chuck. You are beating a dead horse. Testing and charters have peaked in the USA and with Diane Ravitch’s book, will soon be on a rapid downward slide.

Doug, it is doubtful in today’s reality that a parent can actually make contact with a board trustee. I highly doubt if they do make contact with a trustee, that they are actually asking for more money, but rather asking for clarification on some issue, or demanding another answer to the cuts that took place, otherwise than the official reasons, As for People for Education, a group that claims to speak on the behalf of parents, which is doubtful when they are all over the place when it comes to education issues. The reason why they have a seat at the education table, is that the organization can become a convenient clearinghouse, for the many different issues, policies that various education boards, teachers’ unions, government want to propagandize to the general public, and more importantly to the parents. As for helpful information for parents to read, the information is shallow, nor do they warn parents of the pitfalls and snags that are within the education system. On one hand they want parents to educate themselves on public education, and on the other hand, they openly discourage deeper discussions of education issues by parents, because there is a strong belief within People for Education, that parents should not have information that works around the rules and government or organizations like People for Education, who should be operating for the public’s good.
“The lead spokesperson of those opposing the website has been Annie Kidder of People for Education. She told the Globe that her problem with people having access to the info on this website is that, “[y]ou see divisions along class lines in terms of the schools parents are choosing… But the job of government is to look out for the overall public good. Their job is not to help me work the system or get around the rules.”
http://oncampus.macleans.ca/education/2009/04/07/two-cheers-for-ontarios-school-information-website/

Apparently we need others to give us information, so we do not make bad choices. That is not educating the public, but it is propaganda disguise as educating the public.
People for Education has a paid membership of 6000, mainly composed of people from school councils, school boards and high social standing people, all claiming that they represent all the voices of parents and their children. I don’t think any of those members care about the ordinary parent whose main problem has been, and still is the disenfranchisement of parents from the public education system.

The problem parents have is that they tend to see the entire system through the lense of their own children, not what is necessarily the best thing for the entire system. When other say that well what may be good for your child is OK but is not in the best interest of everybody because even lefties like me know there is an absolute limit to spending, parents become frustrated. “Why wasn’t my school chosen for French Immersion?” beause only 5% wanted it whereas the school down the street had 40% who wanted it.” They don’t like this answer. Why does my child have to walk one block to catch the bus but another kid does not? Because it is efficient to use nodes. Not happy.

It is not as petty as that, but petty complaints are heard more often as the reaction to the rules that governed the public education system. Like the rules preventing parents seeking another school outside their zone, for French Immersion, or better methods for dealing with LD children. It is a bureaucratic nightmare for any parent seeking permission to do so, and even for the ones who are willing to pay their way to do so, in terms of transportation, etc. When there is a problem at the school level, ditto for the bureaucratic procedures that are in place and designed to intimidate, rather than to work cooperatively to solve a problem, and work on solutions that are put in place, in a timely fashion. Parents pretty well grow out of the phase of looking through their children’s lenses, fairly quickly, and by grade 4, they turn into cynics. Compound this with how governments and the regular practice of withholding information from the general public, in all departments, we soon learn that we are not always making good decisions based on the available information. We soon learn the reality is quite different from the picture that the different parts of the education is portraying.
And Doug, I do not know how people insist on using socialist ideology, such as policies based on the good of the whole, on a system that is based on a business model, a capitalist model, that is driven and operated as though, the users of the system is seen as cost factors.

Nonsense Doug! Parents are leaders in their communities, managers of businesses, and can see beyond their children and more often the bigger picture.

The lines of division between parent/school are usually drawn from the inside(not always but usually).

I would agree on Nancy’s take on Kidder and People for Education. They’re becoming obsolete and are great at touting public education for everyone else but able to choose their selected schools themselves.  Kind of hypocritical isn’t it.

That they happen to tow the left line appeals to you Doug I know but newsflash..not all parents line up that way.

There is a great tension that is always at the heart of democracy and democratic decision making. The rights of the individual are often set against the rights of the community. For example, the rights of a family to choose the language to school their children in in Quebec which has decided that the preservation of a French majority trumps these individual rights.

The rules within MOE and the boards often mirror this debate. Parents, in their nature seek the best for their child (children). The governing body must rule on the basis of a rather utiliterian “the best for the most” POV. Yes some would use this as an arguement for charters and vouchers but most “states” having looked at it, are primarily motivated by training the future workforce from top to bottom and “letting 1000 flowers bloom” is in direct contradiction to the higher priorities of equity, human capital production and the maximization of human fullfillment for all.

The American Senate was recently presented with the latest OECD data that shows America spinning its tires while it continues to fall on these ranking due to the major distraction of NCLB testing, a total failure and charter schools that start wars all over the country but do not produce higher results as becoming clearer every day. This is why Diane Ravitch turned on the “reform” movement. It did not have the goods. NCLB was admitted by Chester Finn to be a failure and charters contribute nothing but problems and “school wars”. Read the book. If you are still an “accountability and choice” advocate at the end, you need a remedial reading course.

Chester Finn now says the school reform movement now needs a new focus. How bad does it have to get?

The ETF gets another perk-now report cards will have no A-B- C- grade levels-they will only say progressing well or not progressing well or progressing with difficulty-Annie Kidder thought this was a great idea.
Today`s Globe and Mail-They don`t like how parents get anxious when child has a C-Parents are apparently a pain in the #$&(#.

Core Knowledge Sequence   = FREE
Stairway to Reading       = FREE (donation)
JUMP Math           = $180. (24 workbooks, 2 kids grades 2-8)
Public Library         = FREE
Actually understanding     = priceless

And parents are not going to get anxious when they see, not progressing well, or progressing with difficulty? I much rather see a breakdown, so I can determine if my kid is having difficulty or not.

I suspect that most parents would agree that money does indeed contibute to qualty, however money misspent ot diverted away from being used most efficiently doesn’t move quality in the direction most parents want.

Some years ago an audit found that the TDSB has significant issues with excessive absenteeism.  Given the tens of thousands of employees that’d run into millions of dollars, money which didn’t do anything to benefit kids. 

Money well spent improves quality while money spent painting over lousy management is a direct attack on the best interests of kids, the ones we keep hearing are the whole point of things, right Doug.

Then there’s the cost of maintaining all the unneeded schools.  That diverted funds away from other, more appropriate,  uses.  What value was placed on the foregone benefits to the rest of the schools to subsidize the unused ones?

Nancy

  Back when P4E was doinjg their “school closing report” they included my local High School on the list.  Well yes, however there was a new school being built three blocks away to replace it.  All in all folks seemed pretty content with the scenario!

I find P4E far better at claiming we simply need more than at analyzing how the money already in place is being used.  I suspect a great deal of that has to do with being allied with the “stakeholders”.

I’m not saying they don’t try their best but they bring some pretty heavy biases to the issue.

As a parent, and I think other parents would appreciate it to: I would like to see the financial statements of the school board and the schools under the board, published yearly. At the school level, I would want a breakdown on everything, including the amount of soap being spent. I often suspect that the cost savings are done on the backs of the students, and what is budgeted for students, funds are being taken out to finance other budget concerns of the school. Closures of schools, and I do suspect this, are not decided in a vacuum, but rather it is planned in advance, 5 years ahead. One of the first things to go, are the number of courses available, if it is a high school. The courses such as skilled trade courses, art, music, etc. Than parents will observed the next step, where the specialized teachers are gone, or have been reduced to part-time status.
If financial statements plus the breakdowns were published yearly, it would certainly keep the school administration and board a bit more honest, and should help to open up the communication gates between officials and parents.

An audit of the TDSB done several years ago showed various areas of questionable spending.

The claim was that, since school boards aren’t a business they can’t be judged by business standards.  That may be true, but only to a degree, then the issue becomes what damage is done to students when trustees fail to deal with money pits.  What are students made to give up when bad management is tolerated as the norm?

“The claim was that, since school boards aren’t a business they can’t be judged by business standards.”  What a lame reason, and indicates the attitude, that parents are stupid people, who will accept any reason. But than again, we can question our voting patterns too. As far as I know, accounting practices must be follow in the same way as in other government departments, and businesses. The feds like a tight ship, to squeezed out every tax dollar owing to them. However, the problem is that boards are not held accountable to the people, but rather held accountable only to the minister of education. And even here, it is doubtful that the minister, goes over the books to see if everything is kosher. If school boards and such other boards like health, have an attitude that they cannot be judged by business standards, this is a sure sign of not being accountable to no one, regardless of the wasteful money pits, student achievement, etc.