Do you actually believe that the religion itself had something to do with the tiny gap RC schools had over other schools?

Public schools have poorer students, more ESL students moore recent immigrants etc. RC schools to this very day encourage SE kids to go to the public boards as they always did.

Funny, when non English speaking students drag down private school scores it is seen as somehow unfair to count them but when they drag down public school scores they are part of the general literacy crisis due to bad teaching. Hmmmm

Malkin, Doug has a legitimate point here.  If you’re going to make the case that religion has something to do with education outcomes, then you have to control for everything else.  You also have to demonstrate that there is actually a difference in outcome between religious instruction and its alternative.  I’m having a hard time accepting that either was accomplished with this post.

Regarding outcomes: you mention two *private* religious schools with excellent OSSLT results.  So what?  Consider The Bishop Strachan School.  In April 2009, 100% of the eligible students wrote the OSSLT and 99% of them passed.  The previous four years yielded similar results.  There are a bunch of non-religious private schools (and even some public ones) that have achieved overall eligible pass rates of over 95%.  Considering private schools have admissions processes, I don’t know how you cite the OSSLT results the way you did to bolster your case.

(The public schools I alluded to above are the usual suspects:  Lawrence Park, Leaside and North Toronto in the TDSB; Abbey Park and Oakville Trafalgar in Oakville.  I’m trying to stay in the same SES space here.)

Public schools have poorer students?  You’d better back that up, Doug.

What I see as a reason for Catholic school success-

-I have sold 90% of my trainings and products to Catholic Boards-they invest in their children-they have the child`s well being as a minsdet- part of their Catholic philosophy.What can we do for our struggling students?
It`s a core philosophical difference.

It`s very different at public boards-
“How can we balance the budget”?
Kids who are struggling-well we can`t afford to help-even if it works.
See the difference?

That is nothing but a mindless slander of the public system. You might well have said Catholic is good because they hire me. Public is bad because they don’t hire me. Sounds like a conflict of interest.

Same conflict of interest as raises for the teachers when direct accountability for student success isn`t on the table!

Direct (read test scores) accountability is a theory that as yet no workable model. It fluctuates wildly with the same teacher. Even so called value added is full of problems as easily demonstrated by Daniel Willingham.

Not the case with the application of the Science of Reading and a trained teacher-not the case at all-
Doesn`t matter who you quote-

One day I`ll be able to do the research-and it will show.
I believe a trained teacher makes all the difference in the world-in the early grades.
There`s too much and too many of you riding on the failure of this thought.

Yes, weak excuses, Mr. Little

Great story in the globe. Check the part about Canada’s outstanding world beating education and human capital system. The world is telling us that we have a fantastic eduction system. Too bad some people don’t fully appreciate it.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/well-educated-older-immigrants-prefer-canada-to-us-poll-finds/article1614074/?cmpid=rss1

Man what great news for the fantastic education system in Canada, lets all celebrate what our certified unionized teachers have done for us and for Canada. Ill get the party hats and horns.

Doug, I salute your powers of interpretation.

I read the article as desribing the desirability of Canada among highly educated immigrants.  Immigrants who were educated before they immigrated.  In other words, immigrants who were educated SOMEWHERE ELSE!!

You better read it again. You got it wrong.

Mr. Doug, you would fail a reading comprehension test!

The article is about how better educated immigrants tend to choose Canada over US because they think that - as skilled persons - they would have better opportunities in US.

Really, you are so far off any form of logical thinking ... maybe you are not aware of what you are saying ...

Erata ... better opportunities in Canada (not in the US).

Wrong again. They come BECAUSE of Canada’s high human capital results due to its world class education system.

Nope, the article doesn’t state anything of the kind.
Just because you use capitals doesn’t make what you are saying true.
By the way, are you aware capitals mean shouting and they are considered impolite?

You wouldn’t want to lower the level of discussion, would you?

Europe, I’m the one who started using capitals.  Doug’s response could be fairly read as being directed at both of us.  I used capitals because it was Doug and, well, because it was Doug.  I personally don’t mind the odd, isolated, use of capitals but I can tone it down.

Thanks for the backup.

lol! Mr. Little, this is funny.  I’ll grant you that in article you’ve cited, the last paragraph was ambiguous and needed a second read but it had zero to do with our educational system.

Capital letters and/or italics shouldn’t be used by good writers—it implies a lack of ability to express one’s thoughts.

RC schools to this very day encourage SE kids to go to the public boards as they always did.

Horesefeathers. This statement is simply untrue. Even back in the 70’s and 80’s, the Catholc boards (at least some of them—Hamilton, Ottawa, Toronto and several others that I know of) were ahead of the curve in providing programs for students with severe disabilities. They did “refer out” some cases of specialized needs to the schools for the deaf and blind, which are provincially operated, and students with severe orthopedic handicaps to Sunnyiew School in Toronto, which was operated by the old TBE.  They operated their own programs for “retarded” children, which the predecessor boards of the TDSB did not—their programs were run by something called the Metropolitan Toronto School Board IIRC, which served the GTA boards and ran some congregated programs and some special schools, like Seneca in Etobicoke and Beverly in Toronto.

The Catholic boards pioneered the “inclusion” movement in Ontario (google the “Emily Eaton” case or go to a site called thecourt.ca and search for “Eaton vs. Brant County Board of Education.”  This was a landmark Sp. Ed. judgement but was really a non-event for the Eaton family, because though the public board refused an inclusive setting for their child Emily, the Catholic board in Paris, Ont. readily placed her in an age-appropriate setting with a trained paraprofessional. Emily had severe physical and cogniive disabilities and special medical needs). They were doing this before any public boards would have let a “retarded” kid in the front door. And, they had special classes for them where they learned basic skills and workplace skills besides, and had a good track record of getting them into employment. 

Catholic boards have been much more ready to embrace proven effective teaching methods and materials for SE kids. They welcomed Dr. Maureen Lovett of Sick Kids and her elementary AND secondary literacy programs (which the TDSB turned down); these have had a significant effect on raising the OSSLT pass rate among SE kids and kids with low literacy skills for TCDSB.  They also pioneered a trial of the Arrowsmith program for kids with learning disabilities (this program is relatively recent and based on neurological plasticity research: so far, the data is inconclusive but one has to hand it to the Catholic boards -H-W and TCDSB- who have worked with the Arrowsmith people to get data on its effectiveness).

Catholic boards provide a range of Special Ed programs—because of smaller populations, they don’t have special programs for some of the low-incidence exceptionalities. many of these are directly run by the Ministry as special schools or “Section” programs.

Catholic boards have been more consistent in using research-based instruction in Special Education: they are the largest public providers of Direct Instruction reading, language, writing and math programs in Ontario.  They are also working to implement Applied Behaviour Analysis into programming for students with autism (ABA strategies are the most empirically validated for improving outcomes for children with autism). The TDSB gives lip service to ABA but I have yet to meet a single employee of the TDSB who knows {bleep} about it. What they think they know is mostly nonsense. They treat autism as a “behaviour” problem and do not realize it is a generalized neurological condition with various sequelae, mainly involving communication, interaction, sensory perception and conceptual development. Behaviour is a side effect of the underlying difficulties and frustrations.

The Catholic boards do not have the same population base or resources but they seem to do more for their SP. Ed. students than we do. I know that kids we have failed to serve (because of years and years on waiting lists, no personnel for “resource,” endless paperwork and bureaucratic run-arounds, and no resources for the student) have gone—sometimes at my suggestion—to a Catholic school and were helped promptly and went on to succeed in secondary school—getting their credits on schedule.  Even our “regular” kids aren’t doing that.

The Catholic schools seem to have a more welcoming additude towards kids with exceptionalities, and that may well be in part because of the religious orientation and the exhortation to consider “even the least of these” as worthy of the treatment you would bestow on divinity. Laugh at the idea if you like, but if someone takes it seriously, it sure does change how he treats vulnerable people, including handicapped kids.

At present, Catholic boards in the GTA are doing a better job with their overall Sp Ed kids than the public boards are, though there are some exceptionally good schools in the public boards that serve exceptional kids. Franke Oke Secondary in TDSB is one, and I’ve heard Huron Heights in York Regions is another.

Just to add what TDSBNW stated, “The Catholic schools seem to have a more welcoming additude towards kids with exceptionalities, and that may well be in part because of the religious orientation and the exhortation to consider “even the least of these” as worthy of the treatment you would bestow on divinity. Laugh at the idea if you like, but if someone takes it seriously, it sure does change how he treats vulnerable people, including handicapped kids.”

My oldest went to Catholic schools for most of her school life. I believe there is a genuine caring about the whole child. I received many of a phone call, asking if things were ok at home, explaining that she seems not to be her usual self. What I have observed, and experienced is a caring of the child on academic, home, and on the whole child in general. On public schools, it would be a rare school, that would phone home, inquiring if everything is ok at home. I always felt the phone calls showed the concern of my child’s welfare,  in other aspects of life, besides the academic concerns of a student.

Among my acquintances, most people have a better opinion about the catholic schools than about the public schools.

Someone I know has his children in an elementary catholic school.
Based on his descriptions, the english reading instruction is whole language, the math has the same type of new math, wordy, discovery-based curriculum.
However there is homework on a consistent basis - even though quite a bit of it is project work -, there are textbooks and the textbooks are followed.

So it seems that between the more thorough application of the same progressive methods, and the teaching the parents have to do at home to get the higher amount of homework done, the results are a bit better.

Already in grade 3 the children’s levels are growing apart and he was extremely unhappy about the math instruction.

Hardly horsefethers TDSBNW, I have seen them and I have talked to the parents of RC SE kids who were told repeatedly that “we don’t have a program for you here you better try the public board.” Every principal in the public system will tell you the same thing. Not only that, troublemaking kids were told they were not welcome back to St Elsewhere, they had better try the PS down the road. It not only happened, it happened daily and it still happens.

Try Globe and Mail article paragraph 7, Canada with higher level of human capital due to high levels of education…. can’t you guys read Europe or Dave?

It’s pretty fuzzy, but at best, Mr. Little, I think that this gentleman is simply complimenting us.  He’s no expert on our educational system—immigration is his field.  I’m glad you’re happy with it.

“Horsefeathers” TDSBNW??? Is that the same as bull?
Your post is very well done.

Again Doug twists to his content and expects everyone else to fall in behind him.

Parents within that Catholic board appear to be more satisfied with their schools and the way their school councils have been allowed to evolve and work. Respect of parents and the home is first and foremost in the church and education compliments that, not vise versa.

Well Doug, looking through the view of a union lens, has a tendency to colour one’s views. Now that would be a new complaint coming from the principals’ table. Why hasn’t the public not heard of this one?  I can see the headlines, Catholic schools giving students the heave-ho or something like that. Or the opposite, Catholic school poaching students from the public system. Either way, it appears to be an inside secret, that the public is not really privy to. But parents do talk among ourselves and on a whole, most favour the Catholic over the public because of school policy. Most parents I know are not even Catholics, yet they send their kids to Catholic schools. A dose of religion never ever hurts anyone, is a common phase among them.

But than again, you keep on thinking that because you can avoid the real reality of parents. The reality of parents sitting and talking about schools. With the current system, there is not a chance on this side of Hades that any arm of the education system is going to consult with parents , prior to the making the decisions. It is easier to be under the illusion that all parents have no problems with the public system.

What he is in a position to see is Canada’s reputation as a high human capital high education nation as seen by the world including most of the developed world.

The fact is, I know it undercuts certin people’s privatization agenda but Canada IS seen by much of the world as being in the top 2-3 education nations in the world. In many many areas we are #1.

That is funny Nancy because the Catholic boards are getting smaller just as fast as the public boards and in some communities their very viability is at stake. All those non Catholic switchers don’t seem to be making a dent inthe declining enrolement data.

The Catholic board has always been the smaller of the two. Lower birth rates have hit both boards. Yet the Catholic schools are full in most areas. There is rural areas, where both boards might be force to merge, to share common costs such as transportation. Doug you really should get out of Toronto, and expand your horizons beyond the TO scene.

Secondly, on the human capital. it might not be on the education, but rather on the politics. Start reading the world’s newspapers, one certainly will get a new perspective on how the countries view us. I have never read anywhere on Canada being number 1 or 2 or 3, But they do have lots to say about the sorry state of math, science and literacy compared to their countries. And this is coming from government officials. What is mostly talk about, in countries that have a developing public education system, is the system we have here in Canada, and where all parents are willing to send their children to a public system. They are more interested in the structure, and not the academics.

Total nonsense Nancy, Canada’s math scores compare well with any nation and our reading scores are superior to most. Whether you read it or not is neither here nor there.

Doug, most people read newspapers and not the latest stats. In some countries, it is the newspaper that is their only form of information. In other countries, much of the media information is controlled by the government. I have yet to read anywhere, including international agencies, that Canada is the best of anything. However I have read, comparisons of other countries. But no where near what you have stated, that they are raving about our country, especially on the education system.

The PISA TIMMS OECD results have convinced most experts that Canada depending on how you maeasure is always in the top 2-3 countries. Experts as diverse as Linda Darling Hammond and Chester Finn acknowledge that Canada Finland and Korea lead the world.

National Picture

In 2003, 52% of Canadians aged 16 years of age and over had literacy scores in the Level 3 category or above. Level 3 is generally considered to be the minimum level of literacy required to function well at work and in daily living. This means that nearly half of Canadians had low levels of literacy.

When broken down by literacy levels, the highest proportion of Canadians had literacy scores in the Level 3 category (35%); the next highest proportion had Level 2 literacy scores (28%).

Taken from HRSD Website.

Your line is so tired and twisted-you distort the truth daily.

Canada has the world’s second highest scoring 15 year olds according to PISA. Let’s just put it this way - no nation on this Earth is more literate except Finland of course.

Second best is not good enough for me either.

Chester Finn in Hoover Report American Education 2030. “Even if we do everything right for the next 20 years it is doubtful that we could catch Finland Korea and Canada.”

They sure won’t catch up using charters and vouchers and testing as their solution.

Can Malkin and Doretta explain the 2 above statements.
Canada itself on the site I mention discusses their low adult literacy-as stated-level 3-36% and level 2- 28%
That in itself is horrible.

Doug comes up with PISA—A very different stat.

I`d love to know more but not from Doug.

Doug, you know very well that you are taking Chester Finn words out of context. For that matter other researchers. It is tiresome, that you continue to use one-liners lifted from others, to support your position, without providing the reference points and in what context the researchers were speaking on.

Have you read American Schools 2030 by Hoover Instiute? It is right there in black and white. Chester Finn most well known name in American conservative education says we will never catch Finland Korea and Canada in 20 years. Totally in context.

“That is funny Nancy because the Catholic boards are getting smaller just as fast as the public boards”

Sorry Doug - simply not happening in my district as you would have Nancy believe. Actually the Catholic board is holding steady in their numbers and increasing slightly. There the board building new schools because of demand.

Nancy - you’d have to look at the numbers in boards throughout Ontario for the truth because the Catholic system seems to be booming in places like London and Bluewater.

Thanks Joanne for the real story and not the trumped up version of Fantasy in Ontario.

Yes, Notasheep I was incorrect not to take into consideration of increasing enrollments in the Catholic system, despite overall decreases in student enrollment.

I posted the below link, in another topic, but it fits well here too. In my opinion, it provide evidence why even non-Catholics are enrolling their children in the Catholic education system.

“The Newfoundland experience, in fact, served as a wake-up call for Ontario Catholics, to do everything in their power to keep their school lights on.

Missionaries from the Church of England set up the first schools in Newfoundland in the 1720s, beginning its long history of entrenched religious differences in schools. Church control was so profound that it became entrenched in the Terms of Union, which spelled out Newfoundland’s entry into Canada in 1949, making it a constitutional matter.”

http://www.thestar.com/ontarioelection/article/257102

Every school board in Ontario is declining except for a ring around Toronto in Peel York Durham and Simcoe. These are growing due to outflow from Toronto + the fact that immigrants don’t land at Bathurst and Queen anymore. They land in Markham, and Brampton. Both Catholic and public are declining except in this area where both are growing. There is no significant shift to Catholic schools in Ontario. The question that concerns my OECTA friends is the fact that of the top ten immigrating countries, only the Phippipinos are nominally catholic.

note to doug little - your nose is missing sir

So that is your contribution Mr Sheep? Thanks for your participation. Here is your participation ribbon.

in this case Doug Mr. Sheep’s comments tie in with the title of this posting fits.

There DOES seem to be a pattern developing though.

Others here have observed this also.

I am still waiting for Mr Sheep to make some kind of contribution other than taking shots. I wait for him to site an article a study a poll or any type of research. I suspect the wait is futile. Mr Sheep just gets animated when he sees arguments he doesn’t like.

Doug,

It`s obvious that you have a debate style-probably one you honed as a lifelong active member and Executive at your Union.

No matter what the statement,no matter what the issue of the post,just keep repeating the 3 same stale old lines.

Those figures and lines are derived from smoke and mirrors and political media infusion to brainwash the public-

I already know for a fact that Catholic schools-and the scores show it-are EXTREMELY concerned for each child.
It is a true philosophical difference and I am not Catholic-it can be sensed in their boardrooms.

Same with First Nations,they are in front of their children,responsible for them,caring for them and about them and struggling like the dickens to find stuff that works and teachers that are trained.
Nowhere other than in the lack of early research based intervention and First Nations kids is the Ontario curriculum choice more damaging!

The trouble with you is you are not child focused.Results!Show us results!And I still want to know why HRSD stats and your PISA differ so radically.

Catholic school stuff does not need an answer simple nonsense. The entire world recognizes Canada as a leader in education. Those with a privatizing or political agenda try to pull us down but the people know the truth and are highly satisfied. Ask TDSBNW. You seem to believe him.

HRSD Data is inflated so that government will continue to fund them I guess. Every time Canada makes advances in Literacy, someone wants to redefine the terms and context of what literacy actually means.

The world looks at the PISA and TIMSS data and declares Canada a world leader with Finland but Korea is rapidly catching up since they now spend much more money on education and have slashed their class sizes. If we don’t spend more and slash our class sizes again we are in danger of staying in the same spot but watching while Korea passes us. :-(

http://www.minedu.fi/OPM/Tiedotteet/2004/12/oecdn_pisa_2003_-tutkimus_suomalaisnuorten_osaaminen_maailman_?lang=en

As you can see from the article Canada is a world leader in literacy. Finland and Korea are very good and New Zealand are good as well.

Nobody ever mentions the good old USA because the home of vouchers, charters and testing has dismal results. The reason? Too much poverty come back to bite them.

Another blanket statement that HRSD data is inflated, without providing proof.

“How Canada, its people, and its institutions are doing can be measured in many different ways. In some areas, we are accustomed to seeing certain indicators. For example, in the financial market, we see indicators such as last month’s inflation rate, or the daily level of trade in the stock market.

Such measures are important, but what do we know about other areas of Canadian living? How many Canadians have a paying job? What levels of education do we have, and how does that compare with other countries? What proportion of marriages end in divorce? How long can we expect to live? Have there been any big changes over the last 20 years or so?

This Indicators of Well-being in Canada website helps to answer such questions. Developed by Human Resources and Social Development Canada (HRSDC), its purpose is to systematically present measures and report on various aspects of well-being that are important to Canadians.

This website presents one approach to measuring individual and societal well-being. Over time, and with the input of users and interested parties, we hope to further develop the range and depth of indicators on the website.”

http://www4.hrsdc.gc.ca/c.4nt.2nt@-eng.jsp?cid=14

“Based on availability of statistics, our indicators attempt to capture the level and flow of resources over time, providing measures of well-being for the individual and society. “

Now how can numbers be inflated, if it is based on the stats that are produced?

“Where do the data come from?
It is the important work and cooperation of various organizations that make this website possible.

Much of the data are originally collected and reported by Statistics Canada. In some cases, Statistics Canada administers particular surveys and collects data on behalf of HRSDC. Other data sources include international organizations and specialized survey companies.

Citing original sources. The original sources of data are clearly shown throughout the website. When using and reporting statistics and other information from this website, we ask that users cite these original sources and also reference the Indicators of Well-being in Canada website.”

One can only draw a conclusion that you avoid all stats, including Canada Stats that tells a different picture than what you claim it to be.

I’m assuming you read the article above which calls Canada a world leader. I spent years helping the Adult Literacy movement. I have seen the goal posts keep moving, from absolute literacy to “functional literacy” and now beyond that.

Illiterate adults in Canada are predominantly rural, older, Aboriginal, or live mainly in resource extraction (mining, lumbering, fishing) communities or are recent immigrants from low literacy nations.

It is interesting to watch the private school advocates argue that recent non English speaking students should not be allowed to pull down the private school EQAO results but it is OK if they pull down the PS results or the adult literacy results.

I would say, instead that it is you and Jo-Anne and others who simply refuse to consider the OECD, PISA and TIMSS data which is far and away the best international comparative data we have, of course to do so would beg the existential question for this camp right?

http://www.oecd.org/document/0/0,3343,en_2649_34487_34010524_1_1_1_1,00.html

I’m sure you will be happy to see Canada doing so well here. Not only does this say Canada’s results are excellent but it reenforces the concept that the world recognizes that income and income inequality are the major cleavages in education results.

Ooops I thought it was only me that believed that. Seems that the world believes that.

” I spent years helping the Adult Literacy movement. I have seen the goal posts keep moving, from absolute literacy to “functional literacy” and now beyond that. “

Yes making a buck off the low literacy problems. One way of keeping a job, eh Doug? Now why are you not on one of the literacy boards, and why have I not seen any of the blanket pronouncements that you claim. Furthermore, using international data has a problem, where the test measures used are watered down, to take into account the many different ways education is delivered in countries.

Furthermore the international data gathered, also state a breakdown of each country. On the whole, including Canada there is a huge problem of low literacy skills.

It is also note, where English is the dominate language, are countries that have the highest numbers of people with low-literacy skills.

“Illiterate adults in Canada are predominantly rural, older, Aboriginal, or live mainly in resource extraction (mining, lumbering, fishing) communities or are recent immigrants from low literacy nations. “

Now whose fault is that?  Yes the public education system, for failing to do their job.

Never made a cent from helping with Adult Literacy. I am waiting for my apology. You might want to actually find out before you shoot from the lip.

Here come the excuses now when you really look at and acknowledge the world literacy scores. Whatever you think of the level they are set by experts and Canada is number 2 barely behind Finland to be # 1 on the planet. Got any more excuses?

So what are the literacy groups you belong to?  And you still made a buck from it, even if it was in the course of your job, working in adult education. Adult education, is a remarkable growth industry, Even the Ontario Independent Learning Centre, for adults, are asking $40 per course. Also adult education, is quite the job making, in terms of union dues.

First I was the chair of Continuing Education at the TBE which dealt with adult literacy and adult ESL.

Second I was the Chair of the TBE Task force on Adult Literacy which produced “The Right To Learn” report calling for the TBE to add $2 MILLION dollars to its ongong adult literacy efforts.

Third I was a member of the Ontario Coalition for Adult Literacy where all important groups advocating for Adult Literacy met to plan advocacy work.

The first was part of my job as a trustee, the second was created by me to increase the adult literacy efforts. It was not a requirement of the job and was a lot of work. The third was totally voluntary. I was paid nothing for it.

I also made a lot of media and large group gathering addresses on the topic of adult literacy which was the centre of my MEd work at OISE/UT.
In these rolls I met constantly with Ontario leaders in the adult literacy movement. In recognition of this I was invited to Nicaragua to witness the Literacy Campaign there and also invited to the UK where I toured England and Scotland visiting literacy programs and discussing literacy with their experts.

“I am still waiting for Mr Sheep to make some kind of contribution other than taking shots. I wait for him to site an article a study a poll or any type of research.”

Earth to Doug. SQE have proven you wrong again (see Malkin’s next blog post).

I’d also like to remind you that this forum invites discussion and included in that observation. It’s not a requirement to be able to slag any studies, research or polling information to prop up good discussion.

That sir, is your failing not mine.

I guess you are correct Mr Sheep it is considered just fine to contribute no real knowledge or informed opinion but just off the top of your head comment. My mistake.

Mr.Doug Little`s debate style

I`ve read a lot of the posts today.Doug,your style is acerbic.You demean most of us with your petty and repetitious quips.

You are addicted to the status quo and we are a progressive site that votes for change.

I am not totally sold on school choice but after reading their explanation I understand why SQE has taken that route-
You`re a monopoly who won`t admit so many children are getting a rotten education -there`s no accountability other than to yourselves-so School Choice it is.

Accountability has to come from somewhere.
I have come to understand that even in the face of research you won`t budge-you represent the masses in Education and it is a glacier.An opinion based job-not a profession as you state till they are accountable.

We have an education system that most of the world would die to have. 194 countries cannot meet our standard. One is better.

Mr. Little, the above just reminded me of what I often think when I read your blogs:  I believe that one of your union-taught strategies comes, dare I say it, right from Hitler’s methods—the bigger the lie the more people will believe it; the more often you repeat a lie, the more people will begin to believe it as truth. 
Frankly, over the last few decades, many of the teachers’ unions’ actions, have convinced me that these unions are morally bankrupt.  I think that many of your militant supporters are not happy people…

quite correct Jo-Anne. “You demean most of us with your petty and repetitious quips”

Most parents who have taken on the education end up being given the same treatment as do those who post here, sometimes much worse.

The SQE blog is the one place that parents need not listen to the sage on the stage or the petty excuses for lack of proven reading and math programs championed by our public system.

Opinion counts Mr. Little - that’s why the letters to the editor sections are the most read part of the newspaper.
The spin…not so much.

You’re full of horsefeathers Mr. Little, say absolutely nothing but talking points from a grossly outdated union songbook.

The idea of a Little free week on School For Thought, as a trial sounds more appealing each and every day.

This is the one place where parents and educators can actually turn off the union rhetoric…so let’s exercise THAT choice?

Name even one lie Bev.

Malkin says you don’t have to actually contribute knowledge Mr Sheep so you are safe. You can just take shots and contribute zero. Don’t worry it is OK.

provide me proof that Malkin said what you claim she did Doug.  Again spin, spin, spin.

I challenge any participant to this blog to do a quick review of the posts here and let’s tally the insults and baiting to see who emerges the winner.

I do believe Jo-Anne’s pretty much nailed on another thread.

Good night Mr. Little

The idea of a Little free week on School For Thought, as a trial sounds more appealing each and every day.

notasheep, there is a much easier and more effective method of dealing with an intrusive and rude commenter (in Internet-speak, these people are known as “trolls”).

Doug Little has said repeatedly that he is on this forum ( and others) simply to be a rabble-rouser and stir people up. He’s certainly not had a hidden agenda, and for all his self-promotion, he seems to have little meaningful work to occupy himself, or he wouldn’t spend his time antagonizing others to no purpose. He frankly admits he enjoys doing this.

I’ve sen these folks before, on other internet fora, and one course of action is quite effective, but also requires great self-discipline from all involved.

Don’t respond, even indirectly, to anything the person posts. Attention is what the troll seeks, and if he does not get it, his behaviour diminishes in frequency, if it doesn’t disappear entirely.  His “payoff” is the indignation, pushback or argument from others—that’s what he wants. If no one responds in any way to what he says, he eventually moves on to greener pastures, and even if he doesn’t, if you train yourself to simply ignore the provocation, you are doing your own mental health a favour.

But you must be consistent. What scientists call “intermittent reinforcement” (think slot machines or video games) is the most powerful kind. The reinforcement rate has to drop to zero and stay there.

But here’s another fact of behaviour science: if the troll fails to get the response he expects, he will escalate his efforts, at least for awhile, in order to get someone to take the bait. Don’t fall for it! Eventually, the behaviour will self-extinguish when it no longer gets any reinforcement.

Here’s a different analogy. If you bought a new car, and put the key in the ignition and it didn’t start, you would try a couple of times and immediately call the dealer.  But, if you drive an old clunker, and it often gives you grief when starting, you will persist in your key-turning behaviour for a considerable time before giving up. You’ve always gotten it started, eventually, before—so you redouble your efforts.

The internet troll’s behaviour has been continuously reinforced by the aggravation of others. If everyone simply fails to respond (or to refer to the troll or anything he says), eventually the behaviour stops, after a flurry of provocation the scientists call an “extinction burst.”

Been there, seen that in other venues. Decide if it applies in this case.

Makes some sense in one way TDSBNW but the victims of flames and provocation by trolls like Doug Little have been quiet for too long and ignored them.

This forum gives us a choice to fight back. It’s very typical of the system’s bullies to push, push, and push from the inside trying to impress their expertise and their experience on us. They expect us to walk away or keep silent.

If I was new into the system I might take it. Not any more.

If he’s here to provoke and insult people then it’s fair game to lobby to do something about it.

Other blogs turfed Mr. Little for a reason. This isn’t his blog or his forum.

He has one of his own.

What blogs am I turfed from. Sandy still publishes what I say on Retired Educator.

I suggest you follow TDSBNW. Just ignore me Mr Sheep. I ignore you so it is only fair. The fact that you contribute only “comments” makes it easy.

Tell the truth. You were banned from the Crux blog and now Sandy has you on a short leash and often doesn’t post your offerings and she says why.

You were challenged big time at Mend ed. by educators who didn’t buy what you’re selling either.

Comments on this blog are welcome I understand.

Sheep man is challenging you. You seem to dish it out but sure can’t take it when you’re just not making a dent with your rehash of spin.

I’d prefer opinion and comments and new resources of information to that of the old guard.

Doug Little writes on 06/26 @ 9:59pm “What blogs have I been turfed from. Sandy still publishes what I say on Retired Educator.”

I saw that SQE has a Retired Educator blog listed on their site so I did a little research and I didn’t have to get far before blog owner Sandy writes in response to Doug’s tirade on Mike Harris :

” Sandy says:
June 13, 2010 at 10:25 am

I too get frustrated and angry at Doug. In fact, he has been banned here on more than one occasion.”

Please don’t try to fool the folks here.

Reading older postings it would appear that this kind lady gave you more rope and more chances in an effort to provide fair and balanced offerings.

That’s one of the best things about the Internet. Makes fact checking very easy.

Mr Sheep did some research. I am not banned from Retired Educator Mr Sheep. Check the posts.

Doug Little’s provocateur antics were a major reason for the sudden shutdown of MendEd.

He’s probably hoping for the same result here. Can’t have people disagreeing with the Dougie Dogma.

are you calling Ms. Crux a liar Doug.

Her post in which she publicly states that “he has been banned here on more than one occasion.” speaks for itself.

urbantech -  posters here who respect the work of SQE and in their blog initiative need to let their views known to Malkin, Doretta and the SQE exec.

Mr. Little has one objective in mind and it’s so far removed from the reforms and choice that SQE upholds that it brings this entire forum down.

As I said earlier I had hoped that SQE would provide a safe haven for folks of like minds….those that put students first to discuss without judgment or ridicule.

It’s been proven that more parents every year are trying to turn their backs on a system that is ripe with the same excuses and spin that Mr. Little presents here.

The man has his own website. Let him spin there.

Chuck, urbanteach, notasheep,

‘He who must be obeyed’ has created quite a furor here and at other sites as well.  However, I don’t believe that ‘The Furor’ was the cause of MendEd shutting down.  Compare it to ‘The Retired Educator’  - the name says it all.  The moderator of MendEd was not retired, he was finding it difficult to work full time and moderate the site.  As well, he had no funding and his site hosting was going to end this summer anyway.  He just took an early leave - for sanity.

You may have noticed that my last few posts have been directed at specific people.  Take TDSBNW’s advice, ignore the posts and talk around them.

Mr Sheep, I am not banned anywhere.

BTW Mr Sheep, 5.7 % of students in Ontario are in the privte system. A system that has not improved its market share in a long time. Many more than 5% can afford private education. The schools in the wealthiest neighbourhoods where people can afford private are always packed to the limit.

If I were you I would listen to Wayne. On the other hand you could do some actual research and make a contribution yourself. Try it.

Doug, the market share of private schools have not increased, probably due to a number of factors such as living costs. Shelter, food and transportation costs can take a deep bite out of anyone’s pocket, Just asked senior citizens paying the high costs of property taxes in Ontario. To them it is like making a mortgage payment every month.

Here is a link that might be of interest to all.

“Providing their four children with a Waldorf-centered
education has always been a high priority for Lori Tersigni and her husband. The family moved back to Canada from Singapore and settled in Thornhill, Ontario, within walking distance of the Toronto Waldorf School. Their eldest child was in Grade 2 at the time. We knew we wanted this kind of education for all our children and we were committed to do whatever we could to ensure they got it,” Tersigni says. “We felt a real connection with the curriculum and school environment. It’s
never really been a question of whether we were going to send our children there, but rather making decisions to make it possible.” During the past 10 years, the couple have structured their lives and made choices to allow them to cover the tuition costs of sending their children to the Toronto Waldorf School. “We don’t take vacations. We drive second-hand cars and manage our household budget very frugally,” Tersigni says. “Giving our
children this wonderful opportunity is priority number one. I would sell my house before I’d change schools.” For the first time last year, Tersigni applied to the school for financial support to help cover the tuition fees for her children,
ages 8 through 17. Having two children in high school and two children in lower school was more than we could manage,” Tersigni says. “The
school encouraged us to apply for the support. They said it was about broadening opportunities and keeping the school accessible for families with a range of incomes.” That support decreased the family’s total tuition costs by 20 per cent during the last academic year.”
holynameofmarycollegeschool.com/.../Our Kids - You can afford private school.pdf

Here is another link - “Sacrificing to pay the price
Parents make substantial financial sacrifices”
http://www.ourkids.net/school/article.php?id=50

So how many people can easily pay for private education?  StatsCanada points the way,
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/75-001-x/2007109/article/4096885-eng.htm

As I read the numerous stats concerning income. I ran across one, that I want you to answer. Low income according to Stats Canada is, “Just over 3 million Canadians lived in a low-income situation in 2008, virtually unchanged from 2007, using the after-tax low income cut-offs. This represents 9.4% of the population.”

How do you justified increasing funding in education by targeting programing aimed at a group that represents 9.4 %, without addressing the needs of the students who are above the low-income group, and represent the majority of Canadians in average income, at 85%.? 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/100617/dq100617c-eng.htm

It never made sense to me, how you always put low achievement with low income. Low achievement in any school is a lot higher than 10 %. Perhaps you should rethink it, removed your bias political stances, and look at it rationally. One might draw other conclusions, that achievement rates are impacted by other factors, such as school culture and curriculum and teaching methods.

Nancy, every important researcher or any person familiar with education results at all acknowledges the Iron Law that SES has an overwhelming effect on education results.

Even your EQAO results point overwhelmingly in this direction. People will search and search for exceptons but the exceptions are very few and far between.

Doug, who are the researchers?  You better start listing them. The leading researchers of the world in the field of reading, LD, cognitive science, the learning science has a different tale to tell. Ignoring the cognitive needs of any child, no matter what income will certainly lead to ESE factors playing out. As they have found, it is often the methods used to learn, that plays havoc with a child’s learning. There is other factors as well. There is the funding formula, how resources are handled, and the one in particular the hidden biases of the educators and what are their attitudes towards certain groups of children.

There is a wealth of research on SES factors, but little has been done on school quality The few that has been done, are citing anywhere that school quality is between 15 to 20 % that affects school achievement.  Nor are there enough studies being done on schools that are doing very well, despite the SES difficulties. What are they doing differently than other schools with the same SES difficulties.

What about the schools with high middle-class population. Why the different achievement rates from one school to the next within a region, even though they are share the same SES factors.  With my oldest child, I lived in Mississauga. The school she attended, was the top school where everybody was moving in, just to attend this school. It was a Catholic school, where it was two blocks down from where I lived, and the public school was across the street from where I lived. At that time, it had a bad reputation and since I had a front window view, I am inclined to agree with what I saw in the playground, and the few parents whose children were attending the public school. Mind you this was in the 1980s, but what I have heard it has not change much from the image of the 1980s.  I would say school quality matters very much, and can override many of the factors of SES or lessen their impact on student’s achievement.

Oh please Nancy. Anyone who denies SES is the most consistant coreation to achievement is either willfully blind or profoundly ignorant of education reality. I just pointed you to Education Week today.

See

http://www.boldapproach.org.

Please Doug, take your blinders off. And look at the wider picture.

As for your constant citing of BoldApproach, why are the last activity dates back to 2009. Why are the new signers have no dates. Probably more than likely, it was started at the time of the last election.  Not a lot of activity going on, and highly suspect that this site cropped up due to political reasons, and certainly not on the behalf of doing something for children.

What I object to is this constant “Doug is nuts” “Who would believe such stuff.” You need to get it through your heads that my thinking on all of these questions represents MAJORITY thinking. At least Jo-Anne calls it Status Quo which is her way of saying “this is what most people in the field believe.”

It is you guys who are the outriders. Nor me.

Nancy,

the bold approach people are the people who agree with me that poverty is the critical factor and it must be dealt with inside and outside of school. I can see you are intimidated by the list and the incredible list of people who have been added but I can assure you they are still very active. This is why I say the DOMINANT view of education is mine. Your view is supported by very few people.

Nancy,

Keep digging away at the truth.  I appreciate your well thought out posts and research.  Arguments about majority/minority opinions are meaningless.  After all, a majority of Americans voted George W. Bush into the presidency - twice.  Which shows that not only can the majority be wrong, they can be consistently wrong. 

What is more important is to be right.  I understand that dealing with ‘The Furor’ can be aggravating, just don’t let it get to you.

A majority of Americans actually only voted for George Bush once. The first win was electoral fraud combined with the antiquted Electoral College system.

It is good to have you acknowledge that my views are the majority view though Wayne. We are making progress at least.

Did you mean to spell Fuhrer Wayne? Would you call tht low level name calling? Would you like to take the opportunity to retract it?

Doretta is trying to keep it civil. You are not helping.

I really don’t appreciate people twisting my words - or spelling.  I rarely make spelling or grammatical errors.  ‘Furor’ is what I wrote, and what I meant.  As far as the ‘majority’ comment is concerned, I clearly wrote that arguments about majority/ minority are meaningless - I made absolutely no reference as to who held which opinion.  Furthermore,  if posters to this blog want to get into twisting words and phrases out of context, here goes (see what you think of this):

A person who thinks he speaks for teachers has said: “Doug is nuts” (cf Doug Little above).  Mr Little has further stated on another thread, “As usual, I agree with Wayne.”