This is complete and total nonsense. An experiment the size of Canada was conducted in California. They brought in Proposition 13 which capped property tax for education. The state did not make up the shortfall and the total decline of the system to a shell of its former greatness ensued. Is it possible to spend money on the wrong things in education? Of course it is. As long as the money is spent on attracting the best possible teachers; on class size and on ECE the money is very well spent and will return itself many times over to the economy. Do you thing the rapidly emerging education juggernauts of Japan, Korea, Finland, Singapore etc are doing it on the cheap. Not on your life. Korea has cut its class sizes in half and all of them spend as much as they can afford on quality teachers.

No, what is “complete and total nonsense” is the continual spin you keep trying to force feed folks.

Hey Doug, the countries you have mentioned from time to time, have one thing in common, their unions are not as powerful, and lobbying-intensive as the European and North American teachers’ unions are. Here is a link, a report called, Teacher union “concentration” in 21 countries
by Senator Robert Kasten & Gregory Fossedal
Interesting read, how unions have evolved into keeping our public education system, in the status quo, and how unions spend their time and money. Report was done in 1996, but still revelant for today’s discussion.
http://www.adti.net/new_zuberi_uploaded/teacherchoice/21countries.html

You can call it spin if you like Chuck but it is backed up by the best scholars in the field, and your opinion would be supported by um… who exactly?

Nancy - Finland #1 - strong unions
Canada #2 - strong unions
USA States with strong unions = high test results, grad rates etc
States with weak unions, so called right to work states have low test results and low grad rates.

My only case with Singapore and Korea is that they are making massive investments in public schools and it is paying off handsomly.

Japan, unions are strong, excellent results.

“But I’ve also been to Finland, and my best guess is that Finnish success is a function of four main factors: fair distribution of school funding, a strong social safety net combined with high-quality family services for all, an unusually smart and well-trained teacher workforce, and a standard, high-quality national curriculum. American teachers unions are, as a rule, in favor of the first two of these things and may yet come around on the fourth.
In other words, strong unionism may make it harder to implement good education policies, but it may also be the natural outgrowth of political and social attitudes that make children easier to educate. That doesn’t mean we can’t have it all–without it all, the odds of really making a dent in the achievement gap are long. But that means engaging teachers unions, not pursuing futile dreams of tearing them down.“
Check out the 4 main factors, and the Canadian Public education system can’t even come close. Among the first thing to change are what is taught at teachers’ college, and the need for teachers to become skilled in the reading and writing department, which Finland K-12 system, the teachers are required to be skilled in both areas. As for fair distribution of school funding, it does not exist.
http://www.quickanded.com/2009/06/dancing-around-elephant-in-room.html/comment-page-1
Here is another link about Finland’s system.
http://www.truthout.org/032409EDA
And Doug, until teachers’ union, have often been the thorn that has resisted reforms, and I highly doubt that the union, is going to like their members, being not only well educated in teaching methods, but also well educated in the subject material.  It is where reform needs to take place, before more money is poured down the pipe.
Another reform, is allowing teachers to speak pubicly about the education system that may run counter to the union’s position, without having both the union and the long reach of the boards and ministries on their backs. Don’t tell me it does not happen, I have seen teachers being suspended for speaking out, on behalf of their children.

As to Finland’s success, yes a strong social safety net, and in fact all of your factors are true but they are also true for Sweden, Norway, Denmank, Germany and the Benelux countries. Still Finland comes higher than all of these. Canada is second. This leaves me saying the critical final factor is teacher education and training.

The people at http://www.boldapproach.com feel that social factors outside of the school must be dealt with at the same time as upgrades to the schools if the poor are to do better. Today, the Toronto Sun, one of the most conservative papers in Canada featured a huge front page story POOR KIDS POOR SCHOOLS and came to the stunning conclusion that poverty seems to be the critical elements for students that are unsuccessful in school.
Teachers unions could not care less if teachers speak out. They each speak for themselves but the union speaks for the collective.

Teachers oppose certain reforms because the entire profession agrees that testing and privatization are evil and must be torn out by their roots. The pedagogy is a unique combintion of teacher training, board beliefs and individual teacher emphasis.

What the board does? You will have to speak to the board.

From the Sun article:
1. “You can ask for all the money you want for this, but if you’re not forcing it within the public schools, it’s not going to happen. They’re highlighting all the successful ones, but not the failures. And they really have to focus on those schools before they start expanding on the program. They haven’t achieved what they should’ve achieved.”
......typical parent viewpoint, where it is ignore for the most part

2. ““There are thousands of these (poor) kids across Ontario,” said NDP provincial education critic Rosario Marchese, who adds the link between education and poverty is a big problem. “It’s not a revelation at all.”
Typical political response, and translated - the poor will always be with us. What a lame response.

3. ““I’m just not in favour of ranking schools because all schools are different and students that populate the schools are different,” TDSB education director Chris Spence said.
Marchese said more bridges and funding need to be invested in school boards with community organizations, such as Pathways to Education, which help inner-city high school students do better and reduce the dropout rates in school.
“We need that for the elementary level,” he said. “They deal with some of those socio-economic questions kids deal with on a regular basis. If we provide those supports when they’re young, it will prevent problems at the high school level. While the government has given some money, it’s simply inadequate as an incredible tool that has worked.”
Education Minister Leona Dombrowsky sticks by equal funding to all schools and says the money is best allocated by local trustees.
But Marchese counters it’s a short-sighted view.
“Sometimes, you have to give unequal amounts to bring about greater equality. If you want to deal with some of these poverty questions, then help school boards like Toronto, who are putting extra resources and attention in, so kids do better,” he said.
“It’s the provincial government’s responsibility to provide more finances to the areas that need it.”
Spence acknowledges there are service gaps between schools in lower income schools and model schools is one big piece of the puzzle.
“It’s not so much that they’re underachieving, it’s that they’re being underserved, so how do we provide more service and support for those kids, so that we can ensure that they are being successful? We’re working hard on a number of different levels to close that gap,” Spence said.“
.................All typical responses from education officials.
http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/03/13/13221041.html
Trouble is, Doug, teachers’ unions do little advocacy for the students. The lack of resources is really no news to any parent whose children go to a typical middle to low income school. One would really notice it, in rural areas, where within a region, there is only one public school that has everything, and the rest are told, be grateful for what you have. If teachers really care about their students, they would not allow one child go without needing reading, and writing help. They should be demanding it, to provide the resources needed, and the trained staff, or send off the teachers to be trained, regardless of the personal consequences. If there was many demanding the services, that should be there in the first place, the top level of the unions, the education boards, and the ministries would have to dance a different tune. A different tune, because than parents would feel free to join in, and expressed their dissatisfaction.
Even the well-to-do will chirped at the costs of private tutoring, to improved their children’s reading and writing skills, while complaining at the same time, the amount of fund raising at the school to finance the latest upgrading in the school, or perhaps a European tour for the grade 8 class.

why not just come right out and admit that the reason you believe testing is “evil” is that it reflects on the individuality and at times poor teacher quality Doug?

In fact it throws the whole “all for one” mantra right out of the window.

Testing in some measure is here to stay. The McGuinty government will prove its worth by being able to twist and manipulate those results to its advantage in the next campaign.

The mended folks sure are seeing right through Doug’s arguments this morning.

Yes, notasheep, testing is here to stay for political reasons, and education systems will work and twist the stats, to cover up the poor reading and writing skills. How, by changing the standards of measurements either by downgrading the required measurements, or teaching to the test. Two measures that has a great impact on the numbers, and more importantly gives the appearance that education is improving on the grand scale. Here again, teachers unions have a powerful seat at the government table, when it comes to high-stakes testing.
For the anti-test side, the one thing I have never read that would back them up with powerful evidence, is the administration and rules/regulations governing it. It is within there, how it prevents students of any age, of getting the right type of help, in a timely fashion. There is a lot of questions on the processes and routes especially regarding testing, and the doors that are left open, to hide, or present the stats in the most favourable light. Teachers should be advocating on the open abuse that is occurring, and be more forthright, because at the end, it does reflect badly on the profession, rather than where it should be, and that is on the administrators on the upper levels.

You just don’t seem like a person with a sophisticated understanding of education Mr. Sheep. You need to read the research. Testing increases the dropout rate, narrows and dumbs down the curriculum, and has little to do with educational improvement. Twenty years of NCLB in the USA and they are further behind than ever.

As for Mended, seems to me that we agree over there.

I checked out MendEd and I hardly see total agreement.
Last word on this.